Proof of Travel - LNER Barcode Tickets

[jkkne]

I am currently supporting a Colleague with a misconduct case against them and reaching out to you fine folk.

The Colleague is alleging they travelled on an LNER train from Berwick to Edinburgh at the same time there is an allegation that they didn't carry out their duties (with witnesses)

The Colleague has shown the barcode ticket in the LNER app and the receipt for the ticket from LNER which all in all doesn't actually prove anything.

My question at heart is - is it possible for them to get proof from LNER that they did indeed travel if the barcode was scanned by the inspector or at a gateline at Waverley?

Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

I am currently supporting a Colleague with a misconduct case against them and reaching out to you fine folk.

The Colleague is alleging they travelled on an LNER train from Berwick to Edinburgh at the same time there is an allegation that they didn't carry out their duties (with witnesses)
The Colleague has shown the barcode ticket in the lner app and the receipt for the ticket from LNER which all in all doesn't actually prove anything
My question at heart is - is it possible for them to get proof from LNER that they did indeed travel if the barcode was scanned by the inspector or at a gateline at Waverly?
Thanks

Tough one here - what do you expect evidence a scan would prove - that the ticket was scanned? If the employer isn't accepting the ticket as evidence of travel (because after all, the person may not have travelled, or it may have been someone else), then what use is the evidence that said ticket was scanned?

Is the ticket a flexible one? i think the individual circumstances here are going to be key in how they present this case.

 

[185]

The ticket scan usage data could be requested by having confirmation from the selling agent (ie ask trainline or whatever sales agent) where & when it was used.

Unofficially, you could ask a person carrying scanning equipment, when they aren't busy (eg between stops, or staff at a station / ticket barrier) if they could let you get a photo of the ticket's scan activity page - however this is solely at the discretion of the employee. You should explain why you need this, and not take offence if they say no.

Devils advocate - the ticket shows where/when it was used but makes no note of who used it - but if it's enough, the data you need is probably available.

 

[Haywain]

is it possible for them to get proof from LNER that they did indeed travel if the barcode was scanned by the inspector or at a gateline at Waverly

I doubt that LNER would provide this. Was the ticket actually scanned? And would your colleague have been carrying out their duties while travelling? I am tempted to suggest that while it is not perfect, Google Timeline would indicate where they (or at least their phone) were on the day in question.

 

[jkkne]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Apologies for my vagueness.

In essence.
Colleague A missed an all colleague in person briefing and follow up event - they maintain this is because they were travelling to a conference in Edinburgh taking place the next day but left Berwick early to meet some clients (who cancelled through contact our main office much late in the day)

They maintain were on a train whilst the event was taking place - which was an acceptable reason to miss the briefing (previous commitment)

However, they were allegedly seen outside a licenced premises in Berwick - allegedly seen worse for wear at the same time.

They've been unable to provide a receipt or card transaction to show they arrived in Edinburgh and the only proof they have is the train ticket - so essentially if they can show they travelled this would be acceptable to the investigation (as it was booked using a work credit card)

I'm not sure if it's even worth contacting LNER as I'm not sure where the data stands or even if a ticket check took place?
(many thanks for the google timeline suggestion too!)

 

[Haywain]

I'm not sure if it's even worth contacting LNER as I'm not sure where the data stands or even if a ticket check took place?

It might be better to establish whether it was scanned, before thinking about getting confirmation of that. I don't want to volunteer anyone, but there are some people active on the forum who may be willing to look.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Apologies for my vagueness.

In essence.
Colleague A missed an all colleague in person briefing and follow up event - they maintain this is because they were travelling to a conference in Edinburgh taking place the next day but left Berwick early to meet some clients (who cancelled through contact our main office much late in the day)

They maintain were on a train whilst the event was taking place - which was an acceptable reason to miss the briefing (previous commitment)

However, they were allegedly seen outside a licenced premises in Berwick - allegedly seen worse for wear at the same time.

They've been unable to provide a receipt or card transaction to show they arrived in Edinburgh and the only proof they have is the train ticket - so essentially if they can show they travelled this would be acceptable to the investigation (as it was booked using a work credit card)

I'm not sure if it's even worth contacting LNER as I'm not sure where the data stands or even if a ticket check took place?
(many thanks for the google timeline suggestion too!)

While gathering evidence that your colleague was somewhere other than outside a licenced premises in Berwick is a good approach, it would also make sense to - if possible - undermine the allegation that they were outside the pub. This might be positive (evidence of being elsewhere - the route you are rightly pursuing) but can also be negative: in this, I'm thinking of things like your colleague's credit or debit cards not showing them buying anything in the general vicinity of the pub. It would also mean insisting that the other side present their evidence as to why they think that your colleague was outside the pub: if nothing else, if everyone was meant to be at the all colleague in person briefing, who was outside the pub instead of being in the meeting to see your colleague at the pub?

In general, for a matter like this, I'd advise someone to be talking to their union rep: but I assume that either you are your colleague's union rep, or that your colleague isn't a union member. But if the union is out there and hasn't been involved yet, get in touch with them: it may well be that they will be able to negotiate a favourable settlement outwith the disciplinary procedure.

 

[158801]

If you manage to get a person to scan the ticket now - which will show usage - then the person scanning the ticket now will also be logged as scanning it. Will that incriminate this person

 

[185]

If you manage to get a person to scan the ticket now - which will show usage - then the person scanning the ticket now will also be logged as scanning it. Will that incriminate this person

If it's in enquiry mode, the user scan shouldn't show on certain devices. TTK *will* show the user checking, but I think even that has a remove function.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Apologies for my vagueness.

In essence.
Colleague A missed an all colleague in person briefing and follow up event - they maintain this is because they were travelling to a conference in Edinburgh taking place the next day but left Berwick early to meet some clients (who cancelled through contact our main office much late in the day)

They maintain were on a train whilst the event was taking place - which was an acceptable reason to miss the briefing (previous commitment)

However, they were allegedly seen outside a licenced premises in Berwick - allegedly seen worse for wear at the same time.

They've been unable to provide a receipt or card transaction to show they arrived in Edinburgh and the only proof they have is the train ticket - so essentially if they can show they travelled this would be acceptable to the investigation (as it was booked using a work credit card)

I'm not sure if it's even worth contacting LNER as I'm not sure where the data stands or even if a ticket check took place?
(many thanks for the google timeline suggestion too!)

I suppose my questions would be:

What sort of train ticket was it? (Advance, Off Peak, Anytime?)
When was it purchased? (i.e. was it purchased after they were seen outside the pub - a panic "cover buy"?)
Do they have anything at all evidencing travel to Edinburgh other than the lack of receipts you mention? As others have mentioned Google Timeline may help. Do they have anything evidencing their return from Edinburgh?

 

[freddie1729]

An alternative option would be to make a Subject Access Request to LNER or Network Rail to see if they have any CCTV footage of them.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Appears to say that the person in question stayed overnight in Edinburgh, if staying at a hotel, they may have a record of the check in time, his bank may be able to check if a pre authorisation was placed on his card as well and what time etc

 

[yorkie]

An alternative option would be to make a Subject Access Request to LNER or Network Rail to see if they have any CCTV footage of them.

Have you ever operated a CCTV system?

Do you think it would be feasible for a company to arrange for footage from multiple cameras to be reviewed for possible sightings of a particular person (presumably going by a photograph provided)?

(My answers are "yes" and "not a chance", respectively)

I am currently supporting a Colleague with a misconduct case against them and reaching out to you fine folk.

The Colleague is alleging they travelled on an LNER train from Berwick to Edinburgh at the same time there is an allegation that they didn't carry out their duties (with witnesses)

The Colleague has shown the barcode ticket in the LNER app and the receipt for the ticket from LNER which all in all doesn't actually prove anything.

My question at heart is - is it possible for them to get proof from LNER that they did indeed travel if the barcode was scanned by the inspector or at a gateline at Waverley?

Thanks

A scan would prove nothing other than the ticket was used; a lack of scan in no way indicates for certain that a ticket wasn't used.

A ticket can be purchased by anyone, for anyone; purchasing a ticket, even if you could prove the ticket was subsequently used, does not prove that any specific individual used it.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit, this one will be very difficult to prove. But surely the company must prove without any reasonable doubt they the person didn’t do what they say the did. But if was the accused, I think the writing is on the wall anyway because the trust is gone. If they prove they have done nothing wrong, I personally wouldn’t want to work for an employer that didn’t trust me.

That said I have seen a similar situation where I accidentally dropped a colleague in it. I commute by raise. My colleague was claiming mileage the travelling by train and pocketing the difference. I said one morning that I had passed him in the station. however I very much doubt that statement alone but the death nail in his employment, I suspect it was the cherry on the cake as passing someone at the station could be explained in many ways (such as buying a ticket for the weekend)

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I must admit, this one will be very difficult to prove. But surely the company must prove without any reasonable doubt they the person didn’t do what they say the did. But if was the accused, I think the writing is on the wall anyway because the trust is gone. If they prove they have done nothing wrong, I personally wouldn’t want to work for an employer that didn’t trust me.

Unfortunately when it comes to employment tribunals if the person is sacked there is no such burden of proof as beyond reasonable doubt, the employer has to show it has acted reasonably when dealing with the matter and has followed the correct procedures they don't actually need to really prove anything other than that

 

[Pushpit]

Berwick station has no barriers and often has few / no public facing staff, depending on the time of day. If it was an EDB terminating train, it could end up on say platform 5 - they can check tickets there, but it's rare, staff led and I wouldn't expect a scan. Platform 11 can lead out via a gate check but it could easily be open access there too. In other words, normally I would expect that trip to be done without a ticket check, and even if was done it could easily be a visual check rather than a scan.

If they used LNER's internet on the service, then depending on their kit and software, there may be a record of the IP addresses used in their Event Log. In this era it would be a bit odd if there was zero digital evidence - card use, timeline, IP address, tram/bus m-ticket etc in Edinburgh.

 

[Haywain]

But surely the company must prove without any reasonable doubt they the person didn’t do what they say the did

In disciplinary case the burden of proof is on the balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt. It's a considerably lower bar.

 

[jkkne]

Many thanks all for the suggestions and help so far.

I am assigned to support the colleague as an advocate (we don’t have a union agreement). I’ll be honest, a lot of excellent suggestions from here put towards the colleague like google, bank statements etc are being batted away or dismissed and I’m leaning towards the sighting at the pub being most likely and my concern is to offer support if needed for allegedly being worse for wear quite early in the day.

I don’t believe this will result in dismissal but they would be exempt from the company bonus scheme if a formal performance or conduct warning was given which is quite a substantial loss.

 

[Haywain]

I am assigned to support the colleague as an advocate (we don’t have a union agreement). I’ll be honest, a lot of excellent suggestions from here put towards the colleague like google, bank statements etc are being batted away or dismissed and I’m leaning towards the sighting at the pub being most likely and my concern is to offer support if needed for allegedly being worse for wear quite early in the day.

If you are acting as an advocate for a colleague and they are not being honest with you, then you can't assist them properly. In such a situation I would not feel able to continue to act in such a capacity.