Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[TheWierdOne]

The title says it all. Getlink has put out a glossy press release for the 30th anniversary of the Chunnel, that includes their stated aim to double the number of destinations directly reachable from London. Personally I’d put a fiver on the Swiss destinations as I know at least Geneva has dormant customs facilities that maybe could be used for British juxtaposed controls.

Eurotunnel. Remarkable for 30 years. - Getlink

In 30 years, Eurotunnel has become synonymous with commercial success. Every year, millions of customers use the tunnel.

www.getlinkgroup.com

The history of high-speed rail links between European capitals is still in its infancy! Three decades after this pioneering step forward in Europe’s rail network, and in the wake of the development of the recently introduced link between London and Amsterdam, Eurotunnel is aiming to further accelerate the low-carbon mobility of people between the UK and continental Europe by doubling the number of new direct destinations from London via the Channel Tunnel over the next 10 years.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Here we go again.

There is chapter and verse on all possible destination and their problems here.

Specifically for switzerland.
- "Dormant custom facilities" are of no use for todays requirements, e.g. to scan bags, and for total terrorist-proof sealing off of the area. And what would neutral Switzerland think of UK Border Force on their terrritory?
- Trip time from Geneva would be way longer than a flight. Not attractive to the presumed primary business market.
- Trains would have to run non-stop Geneva to London unless you built more special customs area on route

Getlink has been talking about service expansion for years, but in fact it's contracted. Specifically they were floating the idea of preparing a package of approvals to run to Bordeaux and then trying to find an operator.
Just like all these nonsense coming from jokers like Evolyn, or when SBB, DB say "we don't totally rule out never ever running any train through the tunnel" and this turns into a breathless "DB planning direct trains to London" article, my advice to to completely ignore and forget about this. Nothing will happen.
It's just talk. They will do nothing themselves. They want other people to take the commercial risk and do the expansion whilst they collect the fees.

 

[signed]

So you think you could make money with a 5 hour non-stop trip from Geneva to London?

Probably, it takes as long comprising airport time to go from Geneva to London including airport times. When it ran, the direct Frecciarossa from Paris to Milan (which takes 6h30) was healthily used.

 

[43096]

Probably, it takes as long comprising airport time to go from Geneva to London including airport times. When it ran, the direct Frecciarossa from Paris to Milan (which takes 6h30) was healthily used.

Have you factored in terminal time for the train? Whatever time you add on for airport time, it’s not dissimilar for rail in this case.

 

[Austriantrain]

Probably, it takes as long comprising airport time to go from Geneva to London including airport times. When it ran, the direct Frecciarossa from Paris to Milan (which takes 6h30) was healthily used.

The problem is that the economics of a service through the Channel tunnel to the UK are vastly different (cost of passport and security controls, tunnel charges). The trains would probably load well enough, but only at prices that don't cover costs.

 

[nwales58]

Yawn.

Bloggins / Anne-Marie, draw up a press release to make us sound solid, established, yet fresh and forward-looking please. I'll sign it off before leaving for golf at 4 today.

 

[StephenHunter]

Specifically for switzerland.
- "Dormant custom facilities" are of no use for todays requirements, e.g. to scan bags, and for total terrorist-proof sealing off of the area. And what would neutral Switzerland think of UK Border Force on their terrritory?

The facilities at Basel SBB are hardly "dormant", they're not closed up. Also, UK Border Force can do on arrival checks for trains as well.

 

[30907]

The facilities at Basel SBB are hardly "dormant", they're not closed up.

Do they have the necessary scanners etc, or space forcthem?

Also, UK Border Force can do on arrival checks for trains as well.

They can - but AFAIK only the Eurodisney service dispensed with UKBF departure checks (as nearly all the passengers were returning to UK).

 

[StephenHunter]

Do they have the necessary scanners etc, or space forcthem?

Yes; it's a pretty big station.

 

[30907]

Yes; it's a pretty big station.

Yes, but adjacent to tracks 33/35, and in such a way that SNCF could continue to use them for terminating TGVs/RERs?

As a minimum, you would want this service to call at Strasbourg, where a similar problem would arise, though the main buildings on track 2 could probably be adapted.

Not as difficult all told as Frankfurt and Köln - but unlikely to be the demand.

 

[Trainbike46]

The title says it all. Getlink has put out a glossy press release for the 30th anniversary of the Chunnel, that includes their stated aim to double the number of destinations directly reachable from London. Personally I’d put a fiver on the Swiss destinations as I know at least Geneva has dormant customs facilities that maybe could be used for British juxtaposed controls.

Eurotunnel. Remarkable for 30 years. - Getlink

In 30 years, Eurotunnel has become synonymous with commercial success. Every year, millions of customers use the tunnel.

www.getlinkgroup.com

Currently the 5 destinations available are:
-Paris
-Lille
-Brussels
-Rotterdam (returning 10 feb 2025)
-Amsterdam (returning 10 feb 2025)

Destinations that used to exist but currently don't:
-Disneyland Paris / Marne La Vallee
-Calais Frethun
-Aime-la-plagne (winter only)
-Bourg-st-maurice (winter only)
-Moûtiers (winter only)
-Marseille (summer only)
-Lyon (summer only)
-Avignon (summer only)
-Aix-en-Provence (summer only)

If we take the doubling to mean going from 5 to 10 direct destinations, that could be achieved if the direct summer/winter seasonal services both restarted. Of course, new destinations may also happen.

Here we go again.

There is chapter and verse on all possible destination and their problems here.

Specifically for switzerland.
- "Dormant custom facilities" are of no use for todays requirements, e.g. to scan bags, and for total terrorist-proof sealing off of the area. And what would neutral Switzerland think of UK Border Force on their terrritory?

The main point of those facilities is that there are platforms that can be isolated from the rest of the station, which is much harder at many other stations. No-one is pretending that no work, not least an agreement with the Swiss government, would be needed.

- Trip time from Geneva would be way longer than a flight. Not attractive to the presumed primary business market.

While certainly not everyone would switch, Geneva is one of the more realistic options, compared to many that get suggested. That doesn't mean it is easy. However, speed is not the only thing people take into consideration when arranging travel, and eurostar could compete on both sustainability and comfort at the very least.

- Trains would have to run non-stop Geneva to London unless you built more special customs area on route

you could stop in Lille, without extra work. Potentially, stopping at Disneyland Paris, or (some of) the former ski eurostar destinations would also be possible, but would require extra work.
EDIT: just looked at a map and realised that the former eurostar ski destinations aren't actually on the route to Geneva, so stopping at them isn't possible. Geneva and surroundings are potentially a spot for ski holidays itself obviously

Getlink has been talking about service expansion for years, but in fact it's contracted. Specifically they were floating the idea of preparing a package of approvals to run to Bordeaux and then trying to find an operator.
Just like all these nonsense coming from jokers like Evolyn, or when SBB, DB say "we don't totally rule out never ever running any train through the tunnel" and this turns into a breathless "DB planning direct trains to London" article, my advice to to completely ignore and forget about this. Nothing will happen.
It's just talk. They will do nothing themselves. They want other people to take the commercial risk and do the expansion whilst they collect the fees.

I agree this is a fair criticism. Though I'd say losing the infrequent seasonal services for the 4tpd Amsterdam/Rotterdam service may have been a fair trade, and is likely getting more passengers than the seasonal services did.

The facilities at Basel SBB are hardly "dormant", they're not closed up. Also, UK Border Force can do on arrival checks for trains as well.

Wouldn't these serve Basel SNCF rather than Basel SBB?

Overall, I'd say I hope they succeed in getting more destinations, but I'm not holding my breath!

 

[StephenHunter]

Wouldn't these serve Basel SNCF rather than Basel SBB?

Overall, I'd say I hope they succeed in getting more destinations, but I'm not holding my breath!

I think you mean Basel Bad. Both have customs facilities and used to have full passport control.

 

[DanielB]

I think you mean Basel Bad. Both have customs facilities and used to have full passport control.

Basel Bad doesn't really make sense coming from London via France. Basel SNCF are the French platforms at Basel SBB (platform 30, 31, 33, 35) and those are the ones having customs facilities as visible on this station map.

 

[MarcVD]

Basel Bad doesn't really make sense coming from London via France. Basel SNCF are the French platforms at Basel SBB (platform 30, 31, 33, 35) and those are the ones having customs facilities as visible on this station map.

Not sure at all that any of those tracks are long enough to accommodate the full length of a E300 or E320 set, though...

 

[StephenHunter]

Basel Bad doesn't really make sense coming from London via France. Basel SNCF are the French platforms at Basel SBB (platform 30, 31, 33, 35) and those are the ones having customs facilities as visible on this station map.

The Lora restaurant was where the passport control facilities were.

Not sure at all that any of those tracks are long enough to accommodate the full length of a E300 or E320 set, though...

The 400m rule no longer applies - you can use a shorter Velaro or something instead.

 

[Bald Rick]

We really need a sticky thread for the ‘future international destinations from London’ question. This comes up about every 3 months it seems.

Of places not currently served, Geneva, and Köln / Frankfurt are the most likely, perhaps with a summer only Bordeaux trip. But ’most likely’ is a relative phrase, in the same way that Port Vale and Walsall are the ’most likely’ teams in League 2 to win the Champions league this decade.

As a regular traveller to Geneva, I can say with confidence the market is large and year round, but obviously especially busy at Winter weekends. However filling trains at a profitable price on a 5h trip will be tricky outside those times - average fares would need to be £150+. That works (easily) on winter weekends, but not on Tuesday evenings in November.

However the main issue, as ever, is border control and the costs thereof. If we were in Schengen these services would exist now. We aren’t and for that reason these services are all extremely unlikely.

 

[StephenHunter]

However the main issue, as ever, is border control and the costs thereof. If we were in Schengen these services would exist now. We aren’t and for that reason these services are all extremely unlikely.

Today marks the 44th anniversary of the final Night Ferry and that worked perfectly fine before the EEC was even a thing. That even run to Basel for two winters in the late 1960s.

 

[Bald Rick]

Today marks the 44th anniversary of the final Night Ferry and that worked perfectly fine before the EEC was even a thing. That even run to Basel for two winters in the late 1960s.

Yes, and a lot has changed in the intervening near half century.

 

[Trainbike46]

Basel Bad doesn't really make sense coming from London via France. Basel SNCF are the French platforms at Basel SBB (platform 30, 31, 33, 35) and those are the ones having customs facilities as visible on this station map.

That is exactly what I meant

 

[rvdborgt]

Not sure at all that any of those tracks are long enough to accommodate the full length of a E300 or E320 set, though...

Track 30, which extends into track 4, should be long enough.
However, that side of Basel SBB will be completely rebuilt. The SNCF platforms will be integrated into the main platforms, see e.g. this article:

Der französische Bahnhof in Basel wird abgerissen

Im Nordwesten des Basler Bahnhofs entsteht ein neuer oberirdischer Perronzugang.

www.bazonline.ch

As a first step, a provisional station overpass will be ready next year, with access to all platforms. After that, the dead-end tracks will be reformed into through tracks and a new access from the Margarethenbrücke to all platforms will be built. That means there will no longer be separate SNCF platforms and I'm not sure how easy it would be to separate one of the platforms for a Eurostar departure.

 

[jfollows]

I’ve lost count of the number of “promises” of new Eurostar destinations and most of them come to nothing.
Just getting back what we once had - Marseilles, for example - would be good enough. Especially if the UK government was not so stupid as to require the change at Lille on the way back. But unless this happens - unlikely - there’s little point. I went to Lyon once but I flew back rather than put up with the Lille nonsense.

 

[Trainbike46]

I’ve lost count of the number of “promises” of new Eurostar destinations and most of them come to nothing.
Just getting back what we once had - Marseilles, for example - would be good enough. Especially if the UK government was not so stupid as to require the change at Lille on the way back. But unless this happens - unlikely - there’s little point. I went to Lyon once but I flew back rather than put up with the Lille nonsense.

As you can see from my list (quoted below), returning to only some of the former destinations would be sufficient to achieve the stated doubling from today's direct destinations.

It's important to note as well that it isn't Eurostar promising this, it is Getlink, and they would have to find an operator, whether eurostar or someone else

Currently the 5 destinations available are:
-Paris
-Lille
-Brussels
-Rotterdam (returning 10 feb 2025)
-Amsterdam (returning 10 feb 2025)

Destinations that used to exist but currently don't:
-Disneyland Paris / Marne La Vallee
-Calais Frethun
-Aime-la-plagne (winter only)
-Bourg-st-maurice (winter only)
-Moûtiers (winter only)
-Marseille (summer only)
-Lyon (summer only)
-Avignon (summer only)
-Aix-en-Provence (summer only)

If we take the doubling to mean going from 5 to 10 direct destinations, that could be achieved if the direct summer/winter seasonal services both restarted. Of course, new destinations may also happen.

The main point of those facilities is that there are platforms that can be isolated from the rest of the station, which is much harder at many other stations. No-one is pretending that no work, not least an agreement with the Swiss government, would be needed.

While certainly not everyone would switch, Geneva is one of the more realistic options, compared to many that get suggested. That doesn't mean it is easy. However, speed is not the only thing people take into consideration when arranging travel, and eurostar could compete on both sustainability and comfort at the very least.

you could stop in Lille, without extra work. Potentially, stopping at Disneyland Paris, or (some of) the former ski eurostar destinations would also be possible, but would require extra work.
EDIT: just looked at a map and realised that the former eurostar ski destinations aren't actually on the route to Geneva, so stopping at them isn't possible. Geneva and surroundings are potentially a spot for ski holidays itself obviously

I agree this is a fair criticism. Though I'd say losing the infrequent seasonal services for the 4tpd Amsterdam/Rotterdam service may have been a fair trade, and is likely getting more passengers than the seasonal services did.

Wouldn't these serve Basel SNCF rather than Basel SBB?

Overall, I'd say I hope they succeed in getting more destinations, but I'm not holding my breath!

 

[Route115?]

A single ES trains offers way too much capacity for a destination like Geneva. One solution would be to upgrade Lille Europe. If 25% of a ES transferred to a connecting TGV (the other half being local traffic) - say 150 passengers - it might be possible to fill the seats. The cost of staffing multiple security lanes to handle hundreds of passengers in say 15 minutes would be expensive but would remove the need for international facilities at other European stations it ought to be possible to generate several trainloads of passengers per day.

 

[signed]

The cost of staffing multiple security lanes to handle hundreds of passengers in say 15 minutes would be expensive but would remove the need for international facilities at other European stations it ought to be possible to generate several trainloads of passengers per day.

That would be extremely proihibitely expensive and in fair case unrealistic. It would probably cost less to staff another station.

The biggest airports can't handle as much doing only immigration (whereas ES need to pass two border controls + security) without a huge number of border officials and a great deal of efficiency (which is not very much something the French are known for, see CDG), the Paris Nord ES border is hectic at most times (don't know about Lille).

 

[TheWierdOne]

quick update: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...-plans-to-defend-its-channel-tunnel-monopoly/

Eurostar are apparently planning “alliances” with Lyria and DB to offer journeys to Germany and Switzerland. Presumably this will be some form of through ticketing with changes at Brussels or Paris, or just maybe Lille.

Edit to add: will be fun to see if the EU slaps this down for monopolistic anti-competitive practices

 

[Trainbike46]

quick update: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...-plans-to-defend-its-channel-tunnel-monopoly/

Eurostar are apparently planning “alliances” with Lyria and DB to offer journeys to Germany and Switzerland. Presumably this will be some form of through ticketing with changes at Brussels or Paris, or just maybe Lille.

Edit to add: will be fun to see if the EU slaps this down for monopolistic anti-competitive practices

I suspect it will be fine, since Eurostar used to offer through tickets with DB (Europa spezial fares?) and similarly with TGV Lyria.

Especially with Lyria I can't see why that would be an issue - they don't offer any overlapping routes, so no loss of competition there.

 

[etr221]

their stated aim to double the number of destinations directly reachable from London.

<Ultra Cynic Mode> which is not same as origins from which London is reachable. So trains to Basle. Return requires transfer from Paris Est to Nord. </Ultra Cynic Mode>

 

[Austriantrain]

Edit to add: will be fun to see if the EU slaps this down for monopolistic anti-competitive practices

Would be one of those expectable but completely nonsensical EU decisions those of us who never want to „exit“ despair about: there is and will be plenty of competition, by airlines.

 

[signed]

Edit to add: will be fun to see if the EU slaps this down for monopolistic anti-competitive practices

Well, SNCF has the right to through ticket with their own company (Lyria) and both SNCF and SNCB are known to be very buddies with DB.

Competition has always been possible on the UK routes, nobody took them on it. DB tried but backed-off, Renfe has been trying for years...

 

[HS2isgood]

Renfe... The 106's are terribly unreliable lol.