Question about East Coast Main Line route

[Harlesden]

Is it correct to say that Leeds is located on a branch off the East Coast Main Line and it is therefore impossible to get a train from London to stations north of York calling at Leeds en route.
If this is the case, why was the line not built to include Leeds on the main line?
Finally, at which junction does a northbound train deviate from the main line to serve Wakefield and Leeds?

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes it is correct that it is on a branch.

It is not impossible to run such a service, but they don't normally, presumably because there is still an electrification gap.

Perhaps Leeds was not such an important destination 175 years ago, compared to York? What became the ECML was not built as a complete route, it consists of a number of connected separate railways.

Marshgate Junction, immediately north of Doncaster.

 

[Iskra]

Is it correct to say that Leeds is located on a branch off the East Coast Main Line and it is therefore impossible to get a train from London to stations north of York calling at Leeds en route.
If this is the case, why was the line not built to include Leeds on the main line?
Finally, at which junction does a northbound train deviate from the main line to serve Wakefield and Leeds?

It is currently impossible to get a London-Leeds-North train at the moment, but this may change with further electrification or the introduction of bi-mode stock. Personally, I think it's a great shame as the Leeds-Newcastle/Edinburgh is under-served with poor quality trains at the moment, although that will improve in the new TPE franchise. I'm not sure it is worth the time penalty for London-York/Newcastle/Edinburgh passengers though to divert any services that way. The track East of Leeds station is also quite congested, which could be an issue.

There is (at least) one VTEC working that goes from Leeds to Edinburgh and then Aberdeen at 0710.

It wasn't built all in one go by one company, it is a number of historic routes joined together and subsequently branded the ECML.

The junction for the spur is just North of Doncaster station.

 

[me123]

Is it correct to say that Leeds is located on a branch off the East Coast Main Line and it is therefore impossible to get a train from London to stations north of York calling at Leeds en route.

Correct. In normal service, there are no trains from London King's Cross to York (and beyond) via Leeds. Occasionally, there are diversions this way.

If this is the case, why was the line not built to include Leeds on the main line?

It's considerably quicker to get from Edinburgh to London via the ECML than it is to divert via Leeds. It would take around an hour to divert trains through Leeds compared to the 25 minutes currently taken between York and Doncaster. I assume that journey times were the main consideration.

Leeds regularly has two trains every hour to King's Cross which have healthy loadings, in addition to the two trains every hour going to the North of York which also have healthy loadings. The current arrangement works fine, with services between Leeds and York (-Newcastle and Scotland) being handled by TPE and XC - both services could be improved, of course.

Finally, at which junction does a northbound train deviate from the main line to serve Wakefield and Leeds?

I think it's Doncaster Marshgate Junction.

 

[Bookd]

Historically this was possible; the Queen of Scots Pullman was Kings Cross - Leeds - Harrogate - Darlington - Newcastle - Edinburgh. There is now a gap in the route.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Leeds to Harrogate to York wiuld be a very slow way to do things.

There are TPE and XC services running north from Leeds that aerve it pretty well.

 

[kevconnor]

There is one weekday morning service that starts at Leeds and runs to Aberdeen. This runs to Edinburgh on a Sunday but with no Saturday service. As it runs north it will run as a HST.

 

[Bookd]

The old QofS omitted York, using the line from Harrogate to Northallerton.

 

[D6700]

Anyone desperate enough can do it tonight! The 22:00 London Kings Cross to Newcastle (retimed earlier to 21:47) is diverted via Leeds. It is booked to stop there, but is not an advertised passenger call.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y80385/2015/12/28/advanced

 

[route:oxford]

Historically this was possible; the Queen of Scots Pullman was Kings Cross - Leeds - Harrogate - Darlington - Newcastle - Edinburgh. There is now a gap in the route.

Any XC services that served Paddington or Kensington routed via Leeds en-route to Scotland in the olden days?

 

[Bald Rick]

The ECML is an amalgam of several different lines constructed over several decades. Originally, York to London trains arrived at Euston, having travelled via Rugby.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

There is one weekday morning service that starts at Leeds and runs to Aberdeen. This runs to Edinburgh on a Sunday but with no Saturday service. As it runs north it will run as a HST.

there is a back working from Aberdeen to Leeds. Its timed off Newcastle at 22:46 and into York around 00:20 (ish and often early if theres no engineer posession on)

Sunday morning XC services call at York, Leeds, Westgate amd Doncaster before heading to Sheffield, and in reverse for down services. There is a significant time penalty so many prefer to take a northern or EMT service to sheffield before picking up the XC. The more familiar timetable picks up after lunchtime.

 

[Harlesden]

Great answers. Thank you. Never thought of a train from York ending up at Euston. Tim R-T-C's post seems to suggest it is necessary to proceed to Harrogate from Leeds before heading north. Is this correct? How long is the stretch of non-electrified track?

 

[Iskra]

Great answers. Thank you. Never thought of a train from York ending up at Euston. Tim R-T-C's post seems to suggest it is necessary to proceed to Harrogate from Leeds before heading north. Is this correct? How long is the stretch of non-electrified track?

No there is a faster route via Garforth, Church Fenton and Colton junction: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y92244/2015/12/28/advanced

I'd guess its around 25 miles of unelectrified track.

As an aside, a possible useful future diagram could be London-Leeds and then Leeds-Edinburgh or further North advertised as two separate services, this would increase capacity on the through platforms at Leeds by avoiding the current long dwells and also free up more bay platforms if all London-Leeds services went this route rather than terminating.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Great answers. Thank you. Never thought of a train from York ending up at Euston. Tim R-T-C's post seems to suggest it is necessary to proceed to Harrogate from Leeds before heading north. Is this correct? How long is the stretch of non-electrified track?

AIUI from the 9d Ian Allan "Famous Trains" series of long ago, the Queen of Scots was a kind of compromise luxury service designed to serve Leeds/Newcastle/Edingburgh/Glasgow, but also the sedate, spa town of Harrogate. As others have indicated, it went north from there via Ripon to rejoin the ECML (not via York). This was closed in 66 or so?

EDIt: in steam days, the diversion to Leeds, while adding to the schedule, would still not have had the same impact on overall journey times as any such diversion would have today, if it were possible, as the modern Doncaster - Northallerton section avoids Selby, and is 125 mph most of the way.

 

[6Gman]

Great answers. Thank you. Never thought of a train from York ending up at Euston.

You have to remember that Euston opened before either St Pancras or Kings Cross were built so all trains to "the North" had to use it.

I think there was a platform at Euston known to staff as 'The York' at least until the rebuilding in the 1960s even though it was a century since it had last been used for a York service!

 

[70014IronDuke]

You have to remember that Euston opened before either St Pancras or Kings Cross were built so all trains to "the North" had to use it.

I think there was a platform at Euston known to staff as 'The York' at least until the rebuilding in the 1960s even though it was a century since it had last been used for a York service!

Not to mention that Johnny-come-lately known as Marylebone

 

[Marton]

You have to remember that Euston opened before either St Pancras or Kings Cross were built so all trains to "the North" had to use it.



I think there was a platform at Euston known to staff as 'The York' at least until the rebuilding in the 1960s even though it was a century since it had last been used for a York service!

One just has to look at the places on the remains of the gates at Euston to see where the station served.

 

[Welshman]

Great answers. Thank you. Never thought of a train from York ending up at Euston. Tim R-T-C's post seems to suggest it is necessary to proceed to Harrogate from Leeds before heading north. Is this correct? How long is the stretch of non-electrified track?

In the days of the Queen of Scots Pullman, to which reference is made in some above posts, the terminus for trains to/from London Kings Cross via Wakefield was Leeds Central.

In those days, it was not possible to get direct from Leeds Central to York without a reversal just outside Holbeck Low Level, and, as far as I remember, no such moves were ever scheduled for passenger traffic.

However, Harrogate could be reached quite easily, and the Pullman went that way, but after Harrogate it continued on the now closed line through Ripon to Northallerton, thus omitting York altogether.

 

[ash39]

No there is a faster route via Garforth, Church Fenton and Colton junction: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y92244/2015/12/28/advanced

I'd guess its around 25 miles of unelectrified track.

The wires run out of Leeds to the east, as far as Neville Hill, for the purposes of running Class 91's there for overnight stabling. Distance between Neville Hill and Colton Jn is probably about 20 miles.

Regarding the early northbound Leeds-Aberdeen and late southbound Aberdeen-Leeds services, these are probably only used to get a HST to and from Neville Hill depot for maintenance rather than passenger demand.

Also, until (fairly) recently, the ECML used to run through Selby until the fast route between Colton Jn and (I think) Joan Croft Jn was built around the same time the ECML was electrified. This shaved quite a chunk off journey times.

 

[scotsman]

The wires run out of Leeds to the east, as far as Neville Hill, for the purposes of running Class 91's there for overnight stabling. Distance between Neville Hill and Colton Jn is probably about 20 miles.

Regarding the early northbound Leeds-Aberdeen and late southbound Aberdeen-Leeds services, these are probably only used to get a HST to and from Neville Hill depot for maintenance rather than passenger demand.

Also, until (fairly) recently, the ECML used to run through Selby until the fast route between Colton Jn and (I think) Joan Croft Jn was built around the same time the ECML was electrified. This shaved quite a chunk off journey times.

Keeps up driver and guard route knowledge as well

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Ironically when ECML electrification was authorised, wires to neville hill weren't included and diesel drags were going to be employed. Fortunately common sense prevailed.

GNER did propose stringing wires up from Hambleton Junction through South Milford and Garforth to Leeds which would habe closed the gap somewhat as part of making Leeds a loop service to london, but that idea died with the demise of GNER's owner seaco.

The wires will eventually be strung up from Leeds to York as part of TPE electrification

 

[Welshman]

Also, until (fairly) recently, the ECML used to run through Selby until the fast route between Colton Jn and (I think) Joan Croft Jn was built around the same time the ECML was electrified. This shaved quite a chunk off journey times.

The Selby by-pass was actually completed in 1983, and electrified 6 years later, primarily to avoid any subsidence problems which might have ben caused by the Selby coalfield.

It also avoided the psr over the Selby swingbridge. and did indeed allow journey times to be halved from around 40 minutes for the Doncaster-York section to the 20 minutes or so today.

 

[A-driver]

Why would it make any sense to include Leeds on the mainline? Birmingham isn't on the west coast line but is a branch off it-diverting Manchester trains through Birmingham or Edinburgh trains through Leeds would slow down journeys due to the extra stops, low speed station approaches and extra distance covered than the existing bypass and would also considerable increase overcrowding as 2 train loads of people cram onto one train.

 

[backontrack]

It would also massively affect services through York. Why shouldn't the ECML run through York?

 

[RoundNewcastle]

Why would it make any sense to include Leeds on the mainline? Birmingham isn't on the west coast line but is a branch off it-diverting Manchester trains through Birmingham or Edinburgh trains through Leeds would slow down journeys due to the extra stops, low speed station approaches and extra distance covered than the existing bypass and would also considerable increase overcrowding as 2 train loads of people cram onto one train.

It would make sense extending the Leeds services back round York and up to Newcastle maybe the timetable could be:
1x Hourly Fast Edinburgh via Selby Avoider ( Includes Inverness, Aberdeen )
1x Hourly Semi-Fast Newcastle via Selby Avoider
1x Hourly Semi-Fast Edinburgh via Leeds ( Includes Daily Glasgow Central )
1x Hourly Slow Newcastle via Leeds

Though with VTEC increasing services to Harrogate and other places in Yorkshire aswell as the already full ECML beyond Northallerton to Newcastle
theres no way its going to happen.

 

[A-driver]

It would make sense extending the Leeds services back round York and up to Newcastle maybe the timetable could be:

1x Hourly Fast Edinburgh via Selby Avoider ( Includes Inverness, Aberdeen )

1x Hourly Semi-Fast Newcastle via Selby Avoider

1x Hourly Semi-Fast Edinburgh via Leeds ( Includes Daily Glasgow Central )

1x Hourly Slow Newcastle via Leeds



Though with VTEC increasing services to Harrogate and other places in Yorkshire aswell as the already full ECML beyond Northallerton to Newcastle

theres no way its going to happen.

Why would that make any sense at all?

You can already catch direct London-Leeds trains, direct London-York/Newcastle trains, direct Doncaster to Leeds, Doncaster-york, Leeds-york, Leeds-Newcastle and Leeds to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen with transpenine and cross country. So all you would be doing is slowing east coast trains down, making them more crowded by adding Newcastle passengers into Leeds trains and duplicating other operators services.

I can't see any possible benefit for anyone of a direct London-Newcastle via Leeds where every portion of the journey is covered by direct services with various operators. All the examples you give are already possible without a single change.

 

[3270]

Why would that make any sense at all?

I can't see any possible benefit for anyone of a direct London-Newcastle via Leeds

I can think of one situation where it might be useful. If the current 2330 Kings X - Leeds was extended to York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle then we'd have a much later departure to North East England than the present 2200 service. Yes, it would take forever but at least the option would be there.

 

[snowball]

Also, until (fairly) recently, the ECML used to run through Selby until the fast route between Colton Jn and (I think) Joan Croft Jn was built around the same time the ECML was electrified. This shaved quite a chunk off journey times.

It was between Colton Jn and Temple Hirst Junction, which is about 9 miles north of Joan Croft.

 

[swt_passenger]

When it comes to proposed services through Leeds to the northeast and Scotland you cannot consider the ECML TOC on its own, there are XC and TPE to factor into the overall scheme as well...