Radlett rail depot

[Skimpot flyer]

(apologies in advance if there is already a thread about this. I could not locate one, when using the 'search' facility)

I was talking to a friend of mine, who drives HGV's for Royal Mail, who has heard rumours that he may have to re-locate to a new depot site in Hertfordshire. This would normally be of little interest to RailForum members... except that he says the proposed site would be a massive warehouse, adjacent to the Midland Main Line, near Radlett. Intriguingly, he had heard that the site would have rail sidings and be physically connected to the 'up' slow via a chord and 'flyunder'. A quick search on google threw up the following:

Multi-million pound plans for a rail freight terminal in Hertfordshire have moved a step closer after contributions to be paid by the developer were agreed.

HelioSlough wants to build the terminal on the Hertfordshire County Council-owned Radlett Aerodrome site.

The council has deferred a decision to sell the site near St Albans until the government makes its final ruling.

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles has said he is "minded to allow" the plan.

Planning permission for the Strategic Rail Freight Interchange (SRFI) was originally refused by St Albans council in 2009.

Developer HelioSlough Ltd said its plans followed government policies to transport goods by rail and argued that the terminal was needed to serve south-east England.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-25304812

Can any forum members shed any light on how likely it is that this Radlett SRFI scheme will actually be approved? Would sufficient paths exist for freight trains, given the frequency of Thameslink trains on this route? Funnily enough, I have just been reading in 'Rail' magazine, that DB Schenker operates mail trains on behalf of Royal Mail, running from Willesden to Warrington, to Scotland, and to Low Fell (near Newcastle), in a deal that has just been extended until 31 May 2015.

My lorry-driving friend says that the Princess Royal Distribution Centre (PRDC) in Willesden, that these trains run from, also despatches huge amounts of mail by road. But the lorries are frequently bogged down in traffic jams, because the only way in or out of the site is via the A406 North Circular Road. So maybe Royal Mail is planning to process that mail at this proposed development in Radlett ? You could see the advantages: they would retain the ability to despatch mail via both road or rail, but from a less-congested part of the South-East, i.e. not London.

Does the need for future HS2 and / or LO depot space mean that Royal Mail would be forced to vacate the PRDC site at some future point, anyway? (One assumes that Network Rail own the land that Royal Mail's depot sits on, as the WCML and the Euston-Watford London Overground lines run either side of the actual building).

It might explain why they have only signed a 2-year extension with DB Schenker, to run mail trains from PRDC, until mid-2015 !

 

[Saint66]

The local council recently turned down the rail freight depot proposal, stating they have a preference for other plans (There is a combined offer for local housing and a new stadium for the local football club, which has gathered a fair bit of support) But they are still waiting to see what Eric Pickles does, as he has the final say.

Basically, the local people don't want it, the council needs more housing in the area, and are much happier with other plans which don't involve the rail depot, and they have threatened legal action if Mr Pickles approves the rail depot.

 

[YorkshireBear]

DBS think it will now be built so wait and see.

 

[asylumxl]

There are quite a few well off people in the areas around Radlett and I would be very surprised if they don't fight any decision.

 

[Aictos]

Isn't there anywhere else locally that housing can be built? Surely this proposal is good for the local economy and the local council should be backing it not turning it down.

 

[John Webb]

As someone very local to the locality under discussion, there are several reasons why those around Radlett/St Albans are very unhappy with this proposal. Firstly a bit of background. The site in question is the old Hadley Page aerodrome, vacated by them many years ago, and which forms a large area of green south of St Albans.

The main objections are:
1. DoT will not allow a direct connection to the M25, running close to the site, because of the large number of junctions on the M25 which already exist in the vicinity. As a result, all the road traffic it generates (and it's meant to be a road-rail interchange) will have to use existing roads such as the A414, A405 etc, which are all very well used already.
2. There is concern that there is insufficient capacity for trains serving the site on the Midland Main Line, bearing in mind the frequent passenger service both long-distance and local.
3. The local economy is in reasonable health with below-average levels of unemployment, so many working on the site both during construction and operation would need to travel into work every day from some distance away, adding to congestion on the roads.
4. Insufficient attention is being paid to alternatives, particularly one just north of Luton where the MML and M1 run parallel to each other and a direct connection could be made with minimum difficulty, where there are less trains (as many local passenger services terminate at St Albans or Luton) and where local unemployment is significantly higher.

 

[mr_jrt]

I quite like the Radlett location for the depot - I think that with the proposal as-is all it needs added to it is the restoration of the former link to the Abbey Line and you can get freight to and from the WCML as well. It's the perfect location, really, and would justify investment and improvement of the Abbey Line infrastructure (full doubling perhaps?).

The MML capacity concerns are valid though. I wonder if extending the freight lines from Hendon would make sense, as then you could get freight to and from London without issue, and I suspect given strategic important a M25 connection might be allowed. Northbound freight would then be the issue, but that could run off-peak when paths are easier to find - not to mention, when HS2 opens both the MML and the WCML will have more paths on the slow lines as services shift to the former fast lines.

 

[John Webb]

I quite like the Radlett location for the depot - I think that with the proposal as-is all it needs added to it is the restoration of the former link to the Abbey Line and you can get freight to and from the WCML as well. It's the perfect location, really, and would justify investment and improvement of the Abbey Line infrastructure (full doubling perhaps?).....

Although there were structures built on the Abbey line that could take double track when it was built, there are a number of places (ie across the M25) where major works would be needed. Also part of the route of the line through Park Street has been built on.
The main local worry is still the considerable impact on roads in the vicinity, with the loss of 'Green Belt', the intrusion of a 24/7 facility etc. also of concern.

 

[Bald Rick]

Declaration of interest - I live 3 miles from it

Disclaimer - these are very much personal views, and not necessarily those of my employer.

Nevertheless,

1) how do 9' and 9'6" containers get to it?
2) how does, say, a 500m long northbound container train departing, get up the stiff gradient (from the underpass, from a standing start) and through the 20mph junction (maximum possible) without interfering with the 6 trains an hour off peak each way on the slow lines?
3) or is everything going at night?
4) in which case how do you maintain / renew the slow lines, or electrify the MML?
5) which logistics providers have indicated that they would run trains to Radlett from the usual container ports (when it is less than 2 hours by road under normal conditions from Felixstowe / Harwich / Soton, and less than an hour from Gateway)?

If the answers to these are credible, it has my unqualified support.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Declaration of interest - I live 3 miles from it


1) how do 9' and 9'6" containers get to it?
2) how does, say, a 500m long northbound container train departing, get up the stiff gradient (from the underpass, from a standing start) and through the 20mph junction (maximum possible) without interfering with the 6 trains an hour off peak each way on the slow lines?
3) or is everything going at night?
4) in which case how do you maintain / renew the slow lines, or electrify the MML?
5) which logistics providers have indicated that they would run trains to Radlett from the usual container ports (when it is less than 2 hours by road under normal conditions from Felixstowe / Harwich / Soton, and less than an hour from Gateway)?

If the answers to these are credible, it has my unqualified support.

Good points, Bald Rick.

But IF Royal Mail are one of the companies planning to use that site, they already own 15 four-car Class 325 EMU's designed exclusively to transport mail. Presumably, these would not have quite the same problem climbing the incline?
My understanding is that the proposed development would only be connected to the Up slow, i.e. would not have a north-facing chord. If mail trains needed to get to the WCML, under the wires, how would they do that ? I can see how they can access the ECML, via the layout of tracks to the immediate north of St Pancras, but I don't have enough railway knowledge to work out how they can access the WCML!

On point 5, I can see how it seems unlikely that logistics providers from Felixstowe / Harwich / Soton would run trains to this proposed site. Which makes my friend's rumour that it is Royal Mail that want this site seem more credible.

 

[edwin_m]

There's a distinct lack of intermodal terminals in the London area. Not sure whether this is the NIMBY factor, the cost of land, lack of rail capacity, relative proximity to ports, something else, or some combination of the above!

As well as Royal Mail some of the supermarkets might be interested in a railhead near London - however a site on or north of the M25 would probably not be ideal as it is relatively close to Daventry and other existing distribution depots by road. Road congestion starts being more of any issue closer to London, so perhaps the railway would be onto a winner if a site could be found somewhere much closer in or even on the south side of London? Provided of course there was enough capacity for the trains that serve it.

If Royal Mail are interested in Radlett, does this mean they are looking to pull out of the Wembley site? That could make an ideal supermarket transfer depot...

 

[Bald Rick]

It's a huge site, much bigger than PRDC. Bear in mind it used to have a long runway, and an aircraft factory.

The connections are planned for north and south; this could of course change.

To get to WCML north from MML heading south requires reversal somewhere, or a time consuming trip via Tottenham and Stratford, or Elephant and Castle, Wandsworth Rd and Kenny O, or Dudding Hill, Acton Wells, Kew East Jn, Clapham and Kenny O. By which time a lorry could be well past the Watford Gap.

 

[RichmondCommu]

There are a few rail served freight terminals that have been built in this country and yet see no rail freight. Why should Radlett be any different? From what I can gather the freight terminal at Bow is more than adequate for London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a distinct lack of intermodal terminals in the London area. Not sure whether this is the NIMBY factor, the cost of land, lack of rail capacity, relative proximity to ports, something else, or some combination of the above!

As well as Royal Mail some of the supermarkets might be interested in a railhead near London - however a site on or north of the M25 would probably not be ideal as it is relatively close to Daventry and other existing distribution depots by road. Road congestion starts being more of any issue closer to London, so perhaps the railway would be onto a winner if a site could be found somewhere much closer in or even on the south side of London? Provided of course there was enough capacity for the trains that serve it.

If Royal Mail are interested in Radlett, does this mean they are looking to pull out of the Wembley site? That could make an ideal supermarket transfer depot...

Didn't Colas try something similar with a Tesco trial service from Daventry to Euston? From what I understand that has sunk without trace.

 

[moggie]

It's a huge site, much bigger than PRDC. Bear in mind it used to have a long runway, and an aircraft factory.

The connections are planned for north and south; this could of course change.

To get to WCML north from MML heading south requires reversal somewhere, or a time consuming trip via Tottenham and Stratford, or Elephant and Castle, Wandsworth Rd and Kenny O, or Dudding Hill, Acton Wells, Kew East Jn, Clapham and Kenny O. By which time a lorry could be well past the Watford Gap.

Not sure why they would want a connection in the south to WCML Northbound (although a connection from the Dudding Hill line into Brent Yard at Willesden wouldn't be impossible) as surely they would travel MML Northbound and take a left at Wigston over to Nuneaton?

If Royal Mail are one of the new major customers it makes you wonder that if road connections at PRDC at Willesden are so inadequate (yet they transferred virtually all from rail to road) are they just not intending to transfer the existing ops to Radlett with only a token use of rail as today?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Consider the value of a site , which can accommodate storage. Plan a site as a "rail terminal" - and then due to no binding planning agreement , do not build a rail connection. (use 100% road haulage)

I support Baldrick . and declare an interest here. Comments made on rail economics need to be considered - you need over 200 miles to make intermodal pay from a port - Felixstowe is about 75 miles , London Gateway less than 50. Proabably explains why the old Willesden FLT , expensively equipped with new cranes by RfD in the 1990's is 100% disused.

Minor point - post 2018 - the MML will have in the busiest 3 hours 36 Thameslink and 12 MML trains in both directions on the 4 lines. (Oh yes - with weaving moves from fast to slow at Radlett , Harpenden and Leagrave. Giving something like a 6 min opportunity to path a de-accelerating freight.

Better placed at a non critical location - Corby comes to mind , via the new East/ West freight spine.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure why they would want a connection in the south to WCML Northbound (although a connection from the Dudding Hill line into Brent Yard at Willesden wouldn't be impossible) as surely they would travel MML Northbound and take a left at Wigston over to Nuneaton?

Quite. I'm not sure why you would do that either. I was just answering the question in post #10.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A connection off the Dudding Hill to the Brent Complex would need some impressive engineering - looked at years ago as plan Z to save Crossrail 1, would have needed some hefty demolition of housing.

As an aside , if there is such latent demand for railfreight in London , how come the unused capacity at RM Willesden has not been taken up by say DHL or other logistics operators , and why has not the extant "terminal" at Cricklewood not seen a loaded wagon for at least 5 years .?.

 

[66C]

This would appear to be the ideal location for a massive London sort centre and distribution depot for Royal Mail.
I understand that PRDC is bursting at the seams with mail traffic and with Northern Home Counties DC nearby it would provide savings from consolidation.
On the Mail Centre side it would allow concentration of sorting facilitates and the sale of some large central London sites.
It would be nice to know if there is any substance to these proposals as the last to be told are the RM staff