EM2
Established Member
me123 said:
Well, if me123 is correct and I have no reason to doubt it, then I have no problem with him being asked to leave. If that is what is 'going on all over the place', then I fully support it.
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Rail Staff (some) vs Enthusiast
- Thread starter Hampshire Unit
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Well, if me123 is correct and I have no reason to doubt it, then I have no problem with him being asked to leave. If that is what is 'going on all over the place', then I fully support it.
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berwickspotter
Member
if someone is up to no good on a platform etc p###ing about then yes
i'm in full support of the TOC telling people to leave there stations
but for the likes of myself when i was asked to leave i did.
i did not swear at the staff or kick off because what is the point
but i was upset:cry:
The Box Photter
Member
- Joined
- 24 Mar 2009
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- 592
Time to light the blue touchpaper and stand well back.....
Yes, railway stations are private property, however, time and time again, NR and BTP have STATED "Photography for personal use IS PERMITTED". There is no ban and you do NOT have to ask for permission from anyone. The staff member in the video was attempting to enforce a law which does not exist, however in my view, the enthusiast ought to have stopped videoing whilst he explained the mistake to the staff member. If asked to leave and had he not been in posession of a valid ticket to travel, he should have done so with good grace.
It is common courtesy to report in at the station manager's office if you intend to spend a significant time on the station and in my experience I have been treated well at most stations on doing this. At Carlisle, the staff do not bother photographers or enthusiasts, however all staff have a perfect right to ask any person behaving irresponsibly, dangerously or in a manner likely to cause danger to other members of the paying public or staff to leave. At Edinburgh Waverley I was even given an official visitor's pass after signing in and explaining that I intended to take some photos.
I really wish that this antagonistic situation could be sorted as surely both staff members and enthusiasts must have the best interests of the railways at heart. For the TOCs it creates good publicity treating responsible visitors in a benign fashion and for us enthusiasts it gives us the opportunity to highlight the progress happening on the railways. We also act as extra eyes and ears on the station who could assist in the prevention of a terrorist act or other crime. After all most carry several hundreds of pounds worth of high quality photo gear that can take much better shots than CCTV.
Let's remember, we are pursuing our hobby, for the staff members its their job. How would we react if some camera-toting loon rolled up at our place of work and spent the day getting in everyone's way? Time for sensible reflection and reconcilliation.
Yes, railway stations are private property, however, time and time again, NR and BTP have STATED "Photography for personal use IS PERMITTED". There is no ban and you do NOT have to ask for permission from anyone. The staff member in the video was attempting to enforce a law which does not exist, however in my view, the enthusiast ought to have stopped videoing whilst he explained the mistake to the staff member. If asked to leave and had he not been in posession of a valid ticket to travel, he should have done so with good grace.
It is common courtesy to report in at the station manager's office if you intend to spend a significant time on the station and in my experience I have been treated well at most stations on doing this. At Carlisle, the staff do not bother photographers or enthusiasts, however all staff have a perfect right to ask any person behaving irresponsibly, dangerously or in a manner likely to cause danger to other members of the paying public or staff to leave. At Edinburgh Waverley I was even given an official visitor's pass after signing in and explaining that I intended to take some photos.
I really wish that this antagonistic situation could be sorted as surely both staff members and enthusiasts must have the best interests of the railways at heart. For the TOCs it creates good publicity treating responsible visitors in a benign fashion and for us enthusiasts it gives us the opportunity to highlight the progress happening on the railways. We also act as extra eyes and ears on the station who could assist in the prevention of a terrorist act or other crime. After all most carry several hundreds of pounds worth of high quality photo gear that can take much better shots than CCTV.
Let's remember, we are pursuing our hobby, for the staff members its their job. How would we react if some camera-toting loon rolled up at our place of work and spent the day getting in everyone's way? Time for sensible reflection and reconcilliation.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
There's no doubt here. That is a clear intent to commit a criminal offence.
Read The Public Order Act 1986 Sections 4 & 5. They're pretty easy to understand . . . even by somone who thinks abuse is an acceptable response
4 Fear or provocation of violence.
(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—.
(a)uses towards another person threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or.
(b)distributes or displays to another person any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,.
with intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another by any person, or to provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by that person or another, or whereby that person is likely to believe that such violence will be used or it is likely that such violence will be provoked.
(2)An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is distributed or displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the other person is also inside that or another dwelling..
(3)A constable may arrest without warrant anyone he reasonably suspects is committing an offence under this section..
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or both.
5 Harassment, alarm or distress.
(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—.
(a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or.
(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,.
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.
(2)An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the other person is also inside that or another dwelling..
(3)It is a defence for the accused to prove—.
(a)that he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, or.
(b)that he was inside a dwelling and had no reason to believe that the words or behaviour used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation displayed, would be heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling, or.
(c)that his conduct was reasonable..
(4)A constable may arrest a person without warrant if—.
(a)he engages in offensive conduct which [F1a] constable warns him to stop, and.
(b)he engages in further offensive conduct immediately or shortly after the warning..
(5)In subsection (4) “offensive conduct” means conduct the constable reasonably suspects to constitute an offence under this section, and the conduct mentioned in paragraph (a) and the further conduct need not be of the same nature..
(6)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
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Like I said, the youth of today. I note he has been very quiet since making that stupid remark.
No doubt in a few years he will be one of these types who gets drunk on charter trains and hangs out the droplight shouting abuse at passengers on station platforms. Total disgrace to the hobby.
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
Found the above to be very useful.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Glad to be of use!
You also might be interested to know that the offence of causing Harassment, alarm or distress in Section 5.1.b can include offensive or disorderly behaviour seen on CCTV. It is NOT necessary for the person seeing the behaviour to be with the person causing it, and the person causing it doesn't have to be aware of the person seeing it.
O L Leigh
Established Member
You think...? As staff myself I can't see anything to disagree with. Likewise, I can see no reason why any enthusiast should take issue.
I've been saying much the same thing for ages. Unfortunately there are some (here and elsewhere) who fail to see this for what it is; good old-fashioned common courtesy. Instead they want to dress it up as "gaining permission" or "jumping through hoops" which they believe is an infringement of "their human rights". I sometimes suspect that they like the antagonism of the "us against them" struggle that they imagine they are having with the railway authorities, so of course any dealings they have with staff is likely to take on the undertones of a confrontation.
However, I'll say it for as long as it takes to get the message through. Discussion of the minutae of legislation is all very edifying, but what really works is not a thorough grounding in the relevant laws but being polite and considerate.
The only thing that irks me is that every time I say it I get ignored. It seems that people are either too busy trying to impress each other with their legal prowess or bickering. The legal details are NOT the key to the issue.
O L Leigh
Hampshire Unit
Member
Having started this thread its time for some more input. I fully agree that politeness is needed at all times and any bad attitude towards Rail staff should not be tolerated irrespective of the circumstances. But being rail staff myself I was a little shocked at the Anti-Enthusiast Treatment I received. The Member of Staff at Newark North Gate certainly wasn’t playing to the Politeness Rule. As said before being a PTS holder I was clearly in a place of safety, so really didn’t expect to be shouted at not just in front of my son but also a large group of passengers awaiting there train simply because I was towards the end of a platform and not in the middle of it. As I approached the member of staff concerned to point out his mistake he simply walked off. Having been railway staff for 20 years on both the operations and retail side I wouldn’t dream of shouting at a Customers/ Passengers or Rail Enthusiasts in this manner. Of course if for some reason he felt that I was in danger Yes he would have the right to shout but an explanation of his actions after would be nice ???.
Viewing this as a member of staff I feel and hope that it is just the minority of Staff who treat rail enthusiasts in this manner hence the reason I started this thread to see if other people had experienced the sort of behaviour that I did?
Yes there are people who “Break the Rules” and feel that they have a right too because they want to film or photo trains and these people deserve to be removed from stations etc, but the general polite Rail enthusiast staying within the rules do deserve a little more respect.
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16CSVT2700
Established Member
Thanks, I love you too.
:roll:
It's idiots like you who spoil it for the rest of the enthusiasts, and I'm pretty sure the DSM or station manager will side with the staff, and not a gobby little arse.
That said, enthusiasts are welcome where I work, as long as you let one of us know in the customer assistance office first
anthony263
Established Member
I spent a few minutes around kings cross today and found the staff to be most polite even the police officers, although i did see one enthusiast get told off for using flash to get a photos of a national express east coast hst.
I even found the staff at the other main stations i visited such as paddington, queens park and clapham junction, even a lot of the driver's were given happy waves.
most staff i meat today were realy great even spent some time chatting to a few at queens park.
also i would like to say thanks to the driver of the class 319 i photographed at mitcham jucntion around 13:30 this afternoon for the nice wave
I even found the staff at the other main stations i visited such as paddington, queens park and clapham junction, even a lot of the driver's were given happy waves.
most staff i meat today were realy great even spent some time chatting to a few at queens park.
also i would like to say thanks to the driver of the class 319 i photographed at mitcham jucntion around 13:30 this afternoon for the nice wave
The closest I've ever came to being pulled up was a ScotRail worker saying "alright mate" a couple of days ago when I was filming at Glasgow Central. I've most of the ScotRail staff to be nice, except for this one conductor, who has now been forced to shut up after a complaint to ScotRail and my zone card.
I did however read an interesting something on YahooAnswers. While it aint trainspotting, it says something about how how some of the staff aren't so friendly, and thankfully, despite they being part of a company I gladly use often and being based at a station I am at most days, I've never met.
I did however read an interesting something on YahooAnswers. While it aint trainspotting, it says something about how how some of the staff aren't so friendly, and thankfully, despite they being part of a company I gladly use often and being based at a station I am at most days, I've never met.
alexdodds
Member
Durham station surely you would have no problems there infact i have been going to Durham station for 7 years and some staff know me. Durham station staff are always friendly to me.
what was the name of the staff member that caused you a problem at Durham.
sorry for bringing up an old thread.
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JustinStacey.x
Member
- Joined
- 17 Aug 2009
- Messages
- 535
I have never had any issues, and sometimes the drivers will toot their horn.
37401
Established Member
Nicely done pal, intresting stuff, Klambert once said about giving staff the "bird" so I wouldnt put it past him to do what he said
adamp
Member
BTP at preston, I sit down to look my photos ive taken, as soon as they see me getting it out "WHAT ARE YOU DOING??" and took all my details down. Made me mess up my shot of a doubleheaded 92 :@
-Adam
-Adam
Ticket Man
Member
Im constantly being told that i should be aware and that i am responsible for what goes on in my station. if i ask someone about what they are doing on the platform or showing suspect behaviour then its because its my job to challenge people. 99% of enthusiasts are co-operative and can do what they like with in reason. how-ever there is a 1%, which for me came last week when a entusiast showed up who clearly had consumed a little too much ale for my liking. being barely able to stand, i decided it best that he should be removed from the station before he ended up on the track. he got upset at this and said i was obstructing him from his hobby. this was followed by a flurry of insulting phrases that got him a swift £80 public order fine and a nice escorted walk to the exit.
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blacknight
Member
Sadly humam being dont walk around with neon signs stating what their intentions are often engrossed in conversation on mobiles they forget where they are standing, which to me when trains are running through platforms at 100mph plus is an area of potential danger.
From a distance no way of know if member of public standing on or near platorm ramp is or isnot PTS trained or wondering passenger.
More importantly if that person is an Enthusiasts or as in recent incident at Grantham a jumper who quickly became a person hit by a train, who a few hours later converted into a fatality. Train that made contact with person being Grand Centrals freshly liveried 180.
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