Railcard (26-30)

[sonic2009]

If a railcard expires on a given date i.e. 5th Feb, does the railcard expire at 2359 or 0429 on the following day (Railway end day for tickets) ?

Just trying not to obtain any issues with a ticket that starts on the 5th and ends on the 6th in the early hours.

Unfortunately after the 5th I don't qualify for a railcard anymore.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This would appear to be something of an edge case - one that will only affect travellers who are travelling (in calendar time rather than railway time) between 0001 and 0429 on their 31st birthday or someone making a journey between 0001 and 0429 on the day following the last day of railcard validity when they have no intention of renewing their railcard.

And as far as I can make out the 26-30 railcard Ts&Cs don't cover it, and neither is it an FAQ (what with it not being a question that is likely to be asked frequently).

So this is no more than speculation, but since the general validity of railway tickets for day n is until 0429 on day n+1, in the absence of any other guidance I think you can assume that this will also apply to tickets requiring a 26-30 railcard - i.e. you are still, in railway terms, on the last day of validity. You should also consider how likely it is that you will have your ticket checked: naturally, if it is checked (edit) and it turns out in the opinion of the railway staff not to be valid you will want to take all possible steps to avoid failing the attitude test.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Fawkes Cat . Broadly agree with majority of your analysis, but not the conclusion.

I would suggest that the scenario is covered by the following FAQ...

Q. Can I travel on discounted tickets if my Railcard expires before I complete my journey?

A: No. You will not be able to travel with your discounted tickets if your Railcard has expired.

Link to web resource...

Validity FAQs - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

Seems to me that the Railcard expires at 2359 on the last day of its validity and it wouldn't then be prudent to rely upon it for discounted travel on the following morning (up to 0429).

Not quite the same thing, but you wouldn't expect motor insurance cover to still be valid for a further four-and-a-half hours of the early morning after its expiry at 2359 on the previous day!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to me that the Railcard expires at 2359 on the last day of its validity and it wouldn't then be prudent to rely upon it for discounted travel on the following morning (up to 0429).

Not quite the same thing, but you wouldn't expect motor insurance cover to still be valid for a further four-and-a-half hours of the early morning after its expiry at 2359 on the previous day!

Why does that seem to you, when literally everything else on the railway expires at 0430 on the day after the date stated on it?

Not quite the same thing, but you wouldn't expect motor insurance cover to still be valid for a further four-and-a-half hours of the early morning after its expiry at 2359 on the previous day!

Motor insurance almost universally runs from 1200 to 1159 (though I think you can sometimes select times).

 

[1955LR]

Surely the validity of a ticket and the validity of a railcard are two separate things . I can buy a discounted ticket without a relevant card & vice versa. A discounted ticket is only valid where the two validities overlap and in the case mentioned, they do not after 2359 hrs on the day of expiry of the railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the validity of a ticket and the validity of a railcard are two separate things . I can buy a discounted ticket without a relevant card & vice versa. A discounted ticket is only valid where the two overlap and in the case mentioned, they do not after 2359 hrs on the day of expiry of the railcard.

Where is that stated, please?

In practice it may well never have come up - ticket inspections on trains after midnight, unless you're using the Sleepers, are pretty much entirely unknown. Certainly having RPIs who could do any more than ask you to buy another ticket are not generally out at that sort of time, it simply isn't worth the railway's while.

These questions are similarly arising over parking when they previously didn't - a traditionally enforced pay and display car park would assume everyone parked all day and a bloke in a van would drive round each station checking once during the day, so it wouldn't matter if your ticket expired at 2359, 0200, 0430 or anything else, as no checking would be carried out overnight. Entry-and-exit ANPR makes the precise time suddenly quite important.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why does that seem to you, when literally everything else on the railway expires at 0430 on the day after the date stated on it?

@Bletchleyite. If you can point to an official source that unambiguously states that a Railcard still has validity for a (short) grace period beyond its stated expiry date, then I'll certainly be persuaded by your argument.

In the meantime, it would, IMHO, be prudent to consider that a Railcard expires at 2359 on its stated expiry date, i.e. before the accompanying discounted ticket does, thus making the accompanying ticket non-valid if no other (replacement) valid Railcard is held.

 

[sonic2009]

The train in question arrives into Euston at 0040.

My journey is from Crewe with LNWR via Birmingham

 

[Haywain]

The train in question arrives into Euston at 0040.

My journey is from Crewe with LNWR via Birmingham

You'll be fine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'll be fine.

Agreed. Indeed it is very unlikely the OP will encounter any form of ticket check on that journey, other than possibly Crewe gateline at a time when the Railcard is still current.

@Bletchleyite. If you can point to an official source that unambiguously states that a Railcard still has validity for a (short) grace period beyond its stated expiry date, then I'll certainly be persuaded by your argument.

In the meantime, it would, IMHO, be prudent to consider that a Railcard expires at 2359 on its stated expiry date, i.e. before the accompanying discounted ticket does, thus making the accompanying ticket non-valid if no other (replacement) valid Railcard is held.

Literally everything else about the railway day is based on 0000-0430 i.e. a 28.5 hour day. It would be odd for this to be an exception. @yorkie might well know where it is defined as far as ticketing generally goes?

 

[yorkie]

Railway ticketing day ends at 0429; a ticket issued for today (14/01/22) is valid until 0429 on 15/01/22.

I can think of no reason why a Railcard should expire any earlier than when a ticket would.

Not quite the same thing, but you wouldn't expect motor insurance cover to still be valid for a further four-and-a-half hours of the early morning after its expiry at 2359 on the previous day!

Surely a Railcard should be compared to a train ticket rather than motor insurance?

You'll be fine.

Agreed.

 

[sonic2009]

Thanks all, I'm quite knowledgeable with tickets etc., but thought with this question I should ask the forum!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Surely a Railcard should be compared to a train ticket rather than motor insurance?

I'll defer to your superior wisdom on this, noting, however, that a motor expiry policy usually always clearly specifies the date and time of expiry to the nearest minute, whereas the Railcard obviously doesn't.

The clarificatory question that @sonic2009 posed upthread was a reasonable one to ask under the circumstances given the number of folk we have seen coming to the Forum with disputes relating to expired Railcards, and I've not yet seen anything official on the Railcards website that unambiguously confirms that a Railcard actually is deemed to expire at some (short) time following its stated expiry date.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks all, I'm quite knowledgeable with tickets etc., but thought with this question I should ask the forum!

We know. That's why we're not explaining that railway days finish at 0430.

 

[Horizon22]

The train in question arrives into Euston at 0040.

My journey is from Crewe with LNWR via Birmingham

The departure time is in your valid day, which I imagine would be the qualifying time if there was some sort of issue (the chances of which are vanishingly small). As others have said though the railway "day" doesn't really end until about 0300-0429 (0300 for CIS/timetable to reload, 0429 for ticketing)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The departure time is in your valid day, which I imagine would be the qualifying time if there was some sort of issue (the chances of which are vanishingly small). As others have said though the railway "day" doesn't really end until about 0300-0429 (0300 for CIS/timetable to reload, 0429 for ticketing)

Even before the extended railway day was officially a thing, it was accepted that the small number of late-evening trains that reach their destinations shortly after midnight don't count as the following day.

 

[philthetube]

Railway ticketing day ends at 0429; a ticket issued for today (14/01/22) is valid until 0429 on 15/01/22.

I can think of no reason why a Railcard should expire any earlier than when a ticket would.

Surely a Railcard should be compared to a train ticket rather than motor insurance?


Agreed.

If you have any issues just quote Yorkie, the staff will quake in their shoes and let you proceed.

 

[zero]

26-30 is an app railcard. Wasn't there an issue where they showed as expired even when they were valid?

My 26-30 expired during the first lockdown so I didn't bother finding out what would have happened, but I thought that they might not show up in the app any more after midnight. While a ticket check is unlikely, if one did take place the OP might not have any evidence of the railcard.

If it were me I would be happy to travel as per the OP, but I'd use another device to take a photo of the railcard (since a screenshot is not possible unless you root the device) just in case.

 

[XAM2175]

26-30 is an app railcard. Wasn't there an issue where they showed as expired even when they were valid?

My 26-30 expired during the first lockdown so I didn't bother finding out what would have happened, but I thought that they might not show up in the app any more after midnight. While a ticket check is unlikely, if one did take place the OP might not have any evidence of the railcard.

Yes, it would not surprise me in the slightest if the digital Railcard products expired promptly at midnight even if there is tacit validity through to the end of the ticketing day.

That said, the holder's name and the Railcard's expiry date remain visible in the app even after expiry so - on the off chance one was challenged - it might be possible to get by on the strength of that combined with a suitable photographic identity document in the same name.

 

[kieron]

I would ask the railcard people (there are a few options here). Someone will know exactly when a digital railcard will expire, and should be able to advise about whether it would be valid for a particular journey.

If you don't get any joy there, the guard on the London train may be able to help. The 22:10 is scheduled to leave Leighton Buzzard at 23:58, so, if everything runs to time, there would be plenty of time to find out if another ticket would be needed for the last bit.

 

[island]

If it were me I would be happy to travel as per the OP, but I'd use another device to take a photo of the railcard (since a screenshot is not possible unless you root the device) just in case.

I have never had a problem taking screenshots of digital Railcards on my iPhone.