Re opening the Bourne End line back through to High Wycombe

[stevetay3]

Would re opening the route through to High Wycombe via Bourne End ever be feasible , this would provide a reasonable route to the midlands and beyond from the Great Western Mainline avoiding the need to go via Reading or London.

 

[Gloster]

Why not just upgrade or redouble the line from Old Oak Common West Junction to Northolt Junction? There has been a lot of building on the Bourne End-Wycombe route, which was never a very high speed one.

 

[stevetay3]

Why not just upgrade or redouble the line from Old Oak Common West Junction to Northolt Junction? There has been a lot of building on the Bourne End-Wycombe route, which was never a very high speed one.

Up grading the Old Oak to Northholt route would still require people from the Thames Valley to go via London, though I don’t think that option still exists or won’t for much longer I believe the Old Oak end of the route is about to be absorbed by HS2.

 

[30907]

Up grading the Old Oak to Northholt route would still require people from the Thames Valley to go via London, though I don’t think that option still exists or won’t for much longer I believe the Old Oak end of the route is about to be absorbed by HS2.

There has been considerable discussion about Chiltern running to OOC - HS2 will be in tunnel.
Maidenhead-Birmingham is straightforward via the original GWR route; Maidenhead-High W-Aylesbury lost its significance when the Joint line through HW opened c. 1910, so rebuilding it would depend on local traffic - I doubt Milton K is enough of a destination to make a difference (and "they" are dithering about reopening north of Aylesbury as it is)..

 

[Irascible]

I think the NNL has been effectively severed by OOC station at the moment. But where are these midlands trains going to/from? there's nowhere major to go on the GWML *but* London or Reading. Not really much of the midlands either, if it's from north of Banbury or on EWR then you can already go via Oxford.

Connecting High Wycombe to Crossrail ( probably needing a change still ) would seem more of a selling point.

 

[bspahh]

This is a post from 2014 which explains why it is unlikely

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/maidnehead-marlow.102859/#post-1852671

The idea of a reinstatement of the Bourne End to Wycombe section of the line by heavy or light rail, along the original alignment is a non starter. There have been too many breaches of the alignment as at Bourne End, (Industrial Estate), Woburn Green (Housing) and between Loudwater and Wycombe (various Industrial and Retail Units. Also there is the problem of reinstating the four major Level Crossings at Bourne End Station, Cores End Road, Woburn Green and Loudwater Station. The last two were sited at the bottom of very steep road inclines. (The incline at Woburn has an escape lane on it and the Loudwater incline is very heavily trafficked). I would expect that Network Rail would not even countenance the building of a new Railway with four Level Crossings on it, and the construction of bridges at the four sites would be very challenging, (and expensive).
Regarding Level Crossings, the one at North Town, (besides Furze Platt Station), was notorious for the large amounts of near misses, (and occasional collisions) between road vehicles and trains. I attended more than one reported 'wrong side failure' there, when a car driver would allege that the Road Traffic signals had failed to operate. Not surprisingly we could never replicate the fault, although after a Bus nearly got taken out, it was decided that one of the traffic signals was poorly placed because of an adjacent house. In certain sunlight conditions the Road Signal in that location, when operating, may be difficult to see, especially as the Road across the Level Crossing is quite narrow. These factors were considered to put additional workload on Road Vehicle Drivers, which was believed in certain cases caused Drivers to miss the Road Signal. Many of the near misses (and at least one serious crash), were during the school run where the above workload for the Vehicle Drivers might have been exacerbated by the fact the Vehicle would have been carrying children travelling to/from school. (and we know how relaxing that journey can be!).
Finally Arriva offer a Bus Service between Maidenhead and Bourne End to Marlow. Unfortunately you have to travel via High Wycombe and change buses. Journey time nearly 2 hours, although you can wait in the nice fairly new Bus Station at Wycombe when changing. Much better than the monstrosity that is Slough's new Bus Station.

 

[stevetay3]

The route via Oxford would be fine if it were not for Cross Country domination on the route with there toy trains.

This is a post from 2014 which explains why it is unlikely

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/maidnehead-marlow.102859/#post-1852671

Yes I guessed this would be the case. The bus 37 to HW from Maidenhead was very indifferent when I used to travel regularly on it a while ago and the route does not operate evenings or Sunday. Only other option X74 Slough to HW. so a day trip would need to be via Slough.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Bucks Council would like it to happens and have funded route surveys, it is going to require major investment though. One point that aids it is the fact Maidenhead through to Bourne End is still open.

It is much more likely to be done as light rail as this frees up a few Turbos for GWR, line speeds are never that high on the existing line and it will be easier to get past the big blockage of the alignment beyond Wycombe Marsh into the town centre. It could be used to link the bus station and town centre with the station, currently separated by a big hill.
The only issue is that most of the area does not meet the criteria for regeneration efforts, a smart politician would ask Heathrow to fund a study into reopening as it would be very useful for their passengers heading from the Midlands.

 

[Starmill]

It's most certainly not going to happen.

Reinstating the second train per hour and running 8/9 car trains between Reading and Birmingham is much more technically feasible and would produce far greater benefits. Of course even that doesn't mean that the government will agree to funding it, but there's a case to be made. More 'Voyager' trains should be available within two years.

 

[A0]

Bucks Council would like it to happens and have funded route surveys, it is going to require major investment though. One point that aids it is the fact Maidenhead through to Bourne End is still open.

Just because a council is making "supportive noises" doesn't mean its got a viable business case, nor that it adds capacity in the right places to the national network.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Just because a council is making "supportive noises" doesn't mean its got a viable business case, nor that it adds capacity in the right places to the national network.

Thames Valley to Bucks is a major traffic flow. Just look at the congestion on the A404(M) every single peak. And the existence of an every 15 min Reading/Henley/Marlow to High Wycombe proves that there is a demand from a public transport perspective. But the public transport usage in this very congested section of the Thames Valley will always be limited while it takes an hour and a half from Reading to High Wycombe on the bus.

 

[stevetay3]

It's most certainly not going to happen.

Reinstating the second train per hour and running 8/9 car trains between Reading and Birmingham is much more technically feasible and would produce far greater benefits. Of course even that doesn't mean that the government will agree to funding it, but there's a case to be made. More 'Voyager' trains should be available within two years.

That would be great the current offering is dismal at best, nine car IEPs would be better than what we have got now but I doubt that’s going to happen either.

 

[Starmill]

That would be great the current offering is dismal at best, nine car IEPs would be better than what we have got now but I doubt that’s going to happen either.

There is one from Oxford to Banbury at 1915 and Banbury back to Oxford, Reading and Slough at 1944. But yes of course not much.

 

[stevetay3]

There is one from Oxford to Banbury at 1915 and Banbury back to Oxford, Reading and Slough at 1944. But yes of course not much.

Yes that could well work for me returning from Brum Chiltern to Banbury then the 19.44.

 

[A0]

Thames Valley to Bucks is a major traffic flow. Just look at the congestion on the A404(M) every single peak. And the existence of an every 15 min Reading/Henley/Marlow to High Wycombe proves that there is a demand from a public transport perspective. But the public transport usage in this very congested section of the Thames Valley will always be limited while it takes an hour and a half from Reading to High Wycombe on the bus.

But a rail line won't wash its face. Sorry - you can say "well the roads are busy" all you like, but unless you know the *actual* flows you can't say a rail line is the answer.

Is the main flow Wycombe - Maidenhead ? Unlikely. Not much in Maidenhead.

So that means it'll be a mix of Wycombe - Slough, Reading, Bracknell, Basingstoke, or even Guildford. None of those would be a direct train journey *even if you reinstated Wycombe - Maidenhead* so the journey times, whilst quicker than a bus, will be slow and reliant on changes - and the GW mainline timetable isn't going to be recast to align connections at Maidenhead because of the other things it will screw up.

 

[Starmill]

If you want to go from Maidenhead or nearby towns and villages including Taplow, Holyport, Burnham, Windsor, Well End, Marlow or Henley-on-Thames, to somewhere in the West Midlands or Warwickshire overwhelmingly the best thing for these journeys would be to increase capacity on the existing services from Reading and High Wycombe through to Leamington Spa and Birmingham city centre, not building a new line.

The fast train from High Wycombe to Birmingham Moor Street is very time competitive too at 90 minutes, so if I were the OP I would strongly consider the local bus options with Arriva and Carousel to High Wycombe. Obviously the buses are fairly slow and not every route passes High Wycombe station which is annoying, but still.

If you're in Slough, Burnham or Windsor the X74 is a reasonably good shout. The other routes from Maidenhead are pretty indirect and slowed badly by the traffic.

If you have car access, parking is free at High Wycombe Coachway and the 8/X8 are direct to High Wycombe station. I don't know what availability is like there though, I've never been. Must be a pain that there's no service on Sundays though??

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you want to go from Maidenhead or nearby towns and villages including Taplow, Holyport, Burnham, Windsor, Well End, Marlow or Henley-on-Thames, to somewhere in the West Midlands or Warwickshire overwhelmingly the best thing for these journeys would be to increase capacity on the existing services from Reading and High Wycombe through to Leamington Spa and Birmingham city centre, not building a new line.

The fast train from High Wycombe to Birmingham Moor Street is very time competitive too at 90 minutes, so if I were the OP I would strongly consider the local bus options with Arriva and Carousel to High Wycombe. Obviously the buses are fairly slow and not every route passes High Wycombe station which is annoying, but still.

If you're in Slough, Burnham or Windsor the X74 is a reasonably good shout. The other routes from Maidenhead are pretty indirect and slowed badly by the traffic.

If you have car access, parking is free at High Wycombe Coachway and the 8/X8 are direct to High Wycombe station. I don't know what availability is like there though, I've never been. Must be a pain that there's no service on Sundays though??

HW Coachway is never that full, the 800/850 coming from Reading/Henley/Marlow still have Sunday service and run past the site. It's 20 mins to the station with the 800 and another bus.
The X74 is too slow to be competitive with the M4 and A404(M).
Slough to Maidenhead on Tfl Rail, M'head to Marlow on GWR and the 800/850 beats it at times! Carousel doesn't run anywhere near Marlow/Henley/M'head since they withdrew the short lived, cheap, much faster and very good quality X80 Regatta service from the Ding to High Wycombe ( partially replaced by their sister Go Ahead company's River Rapids X38 Oxford to Reading via Henley, now cut back to Henley Tescos). If the X80 were still around, it wouldn't be such a bugger to travel from Reading or anywhere in the mid Thames Valley to the M40 Corridor and beyond.
We're really talking about a zone from Banbury to Uxbridge which is close to and strongly economically linked to the Thames Valley, but difficult to access via public transport.

 

[Starmill]

HW Coachway is never that full, the 800/850 coming from Reading/Henley/Marlow still have Sunday service and run past the site. It's 20 mins to the station with the 800 and another bus.
The X74 is too slow to be competitive with the M4 and A404(M).
Slough to Maidenhead on Tfl Rail, M'head to Marlow on GWR and the 800/850 beats it at times! Carousel doesn't run anywhere near Marlow/Henley/M'head since they withdrew the short lived, cheap, much faster and very good quality X80 Regatta service from the Ding to High Wycombe ( partially replaced by their sister Go Ahead company's River Rapids X38 Oxford to Reading via Henley, now cut back to Henley Tescos). If the X80 were still around, it wouldn't be such a bugger to travel from Reading or anywhere in the mid Thames Valley to the M40 Corridor and beyond.
We're really talking about a zone from Banbury to Uxbridge which is close to and strongly economically linked to the Thames Valley, but difficult to access via public transport.

Interesting thank you. When I've been to the area I've thought that they could do so much with just a small increase in resources, but as commercial bus companies they've just got to do what they can with what they have.

 

[AlastairFraser]

But a rail line won't wash its face. Sorry - you can say "well the roads are busy" all you like, but unless you know the *actual* flows you can't say a rail line is the answer.

Is the main flow Wycombe - Maidenhead ? Unlikely. Not much in Maidenhead.

So that means it'll be a mix of Wycombe - Slough, Reading, Bracknell, Basingstoke, or even Guildford. None of those would be a direct train journey *even if you reinstated Wycombe - Maidenhead* so the journey times, whilst quicker than a bus, will be slow and reliant on changes - and the GW mainline timetable isn't going to be recast to align connections at Maidenhead because of the other things it will screw up.

Several big flows that could be served by this line - Wycombe to Heathrow as a Western access to Heathrow - lots of employees live in Wycombe for the good house prices, existence of a current direct bus to serve these employees and as a Western access to Heathrow.
Wycombe to Burnham for Slough Business Estate, 1 change for a major employment centre , road access is poor, so modal shift for quicker train would be significant.
Large business parks in Loudwater right by the railway attract lots of Thames Valley traffic too. Reading to Wycombe would be a simple change at Maidenhead, big flows either way for leisure (shopping) and business in Reading, car would be slower than train for these flows. Wycombe and a lot of the Chiltern Main Line for Mars in Slough and Glaxo Smith Kline in Maidenhead. So many flows that could be captured by railways. Wooburn Green to M'head/HW and Loudwater to HW school and business flows would be enough to get 4tph on the line and link up with the current GWML timetable without rejigging. Roads will always be **** in the area due to tough terrain and NIMBIES, this would also block any sort of BRT in the area.

Interesting thank you. When I've been to the area I've thought that they could do so much with just a small increase in resources, but as commercial bus companies they've just got to do what they can with what they have.

Carousel do what they can and Wycombe DC used to be quite good with coordination of the Smart Zone tickets and effective subsidy, but the new unitary ruled from their citadel 20 miles away in Aylesbury doesn't care about the Wycombe end of Bucks. Arriva were looking as if they were going to pull out for a long time, but then they won loads of subsidised contracts and they continue not to give a **** about the area and their local subsidiary.

 

[A0]

Several big flows that could be served by this line - Wycombe to Heathrow as a Western access to Heathrow - lots of employees live in Wycombe for the good house prices, existence of a current direct bus to serve these employees and as a Western access to Heathrow.
Wycombe to Burnham for Slough Business Estate, 1 change for a major employment centre , road access is poor, so modal shift for quicker train would be significant.

Given there isn't "western" access to Heathrow currently for the GWML, not sure how you think Wycombe would get that?

Add in, when Old Oak Common is complete, Chiltern from Wycombe to OOC then Crossrail will be miles quicker than any "via Maidenhead" journey.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t think anyone has ever troubled the “restoring your railway” process with this one, unless I missed it on a quick search. That would suggest it’s a nogo…