Received caution for failing to produce YP railcard, what could happen?

[abj18]

Hi all

I purchased a ticket with a 16 - 25 railcard thinking I had brought it with me in my bag, however, it turns out I had left it at home. The person then issued me a caution and told me to email an address with a photo of my railcard which I agreed to, however I’ve just gotten home and seen that my railcard has actually expired. In fact it’s expired a few months ago - how I’ve overlooked this I genuinely don’t know and am feeling very very silly. I do not travel by rail fare often though so don’t look at my railcard all that much. Regardless another very stupid mistake.

I plan on emailing the given address with an apology and offer to pay a penalty fare or whatever’s applicable. I’m not sure if it makes any difference but the money I saved on the fare wasn’t significant, it was about £3.

My question is will this be the end of it or could they prosecute me? To be specific this was Govia Thameslink. As a student under 18 I’m not able to afford court costs and am feeling quite anxious about the situation now. I do take full responsibility for my actions and am not expecting any sympathy but would just like to get an idea of what could happen.

Thanks in advance.

 

[MikeWh]

How long is it until your 18th birthday?

 

[abj18]

How long is it until your 18th birthday?

Hi thanks for your response, it is in mid February so about 5 months.

 

[MikeWh]

OK. It is unlikely that they would prosecute a minor. In theory they could wait until you are 18 before laying papers before the court, but if you co-operate then that is unlikely.

Usually where a railcard has been forgotten you are sold a replacement ticket at full price and promised a refund on production of the railcard as long as you haven't already done this within the year. If that had been done then it would have been the end of it because you didn't have a valid railcard. I'm not exactly clear what process is being followed in your case, but if it is as you have said I would send a letter/email saying that you have discovered your railcard had actually expired. Express your apology and offer to pay the outstanding fare plus their costs in dealing with the matter. Then wait and see what they say.

Going forward, you are now known to them so you need to be especially careful about having the correct tickets and any supporting documentation (ie railcard).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi thanks for your response, it is in mid February so about 5 months.

The reason that this is relevant is that the Court process works differently depending on whether you are under 18, or 18 or over, at the time of the hearing. In all of this, the only strict deadline is that Govia Thameslink Railway have to submit their application for prosecution to the Court within 6 months of an alleged offence, if they want to prosecute. If there is a fair amount of correspondence then it could be near the end of that period before they submit their application (if they do), and given the waiting times for a hearing you would quite possibly be 18, and hence subject to the more stringent Court procedures, at the time of any hearing.

All this being said, whilst having an out-of-date Railcard may be seen badly, I don't see any point in lying about it - and so I think your suggestion of writing them an email offering to settle out of Court may be your best option.

It is not possible for them to issue you with a Penalty Fare after the fact - Penalty Fares must always be issued directly when the issue is detected. However, if they accept your apology then it is possible they may offer you an out of Court settlement.

 

[abj18]

The reason that this is relevant is that the Court process works differently depending on whether you are under 18, or 18 or over, at the time of the hearing. In all of this, the only strict deadline is that Govia Thameslink Railway have to submit their application for prosecution to the Court within 6 months of an alleged offence, if they want to prosecute. If there is a fair amount of correspondence then it could be near the end of that period before they submit their application (if they do), and given the waiting times for a hearing you would quite possibly be 18, and hence subject to the more stringent Court procedures, at the time of any hearing.

All this being said, whilst having an out-of-date Railcard may be seen badly, I don't see any point in lying about it - and so I think your suggestion of writing them an email offering to settle out of Court may be your best option.

It is not possible for them to issue you with a Penalty Fare after the fact - Penalty Fares must always be issued directly when the issue is detected. However, if they accept your apology then it is possible they may offer you an out of Court settlement.

Thank you for the detailed reply, yes an out of Court settlement would be the best case scenario. Unfortunately I was not offered the option of paying a Penalty fare and have only learned what it was, otherwise I would have been happy to pay it on the spot. Do you think this would be relevant to the email or should I keep it as concise as possible?

 

[mikeg]

Then yes they could prosecute, the ball is in their court. It is likely they will be keen to settle the matter thoug, or wait until you turn 18 to lay information before the courts as whilst you can be prosecuted from age ten, it's generally a faff to prosecute those who are not yet adults. You can be tried as an adult once you turn eighteen even though the offence was committed beforehand, though I believe you would be sentenced as a youth. They only have six months to lay information before the courts, otherwise you walk scot free. I suggest once you receive the dreaded letter, replying in a factual concise and apologetic tone, explaining your errors and offering to pay the full fare plus any costs incurred by govia thameslink. I think this would have a high chance of success even if it leaves you with a lighter wallet.

The other possibility is they don't wait until you turn 18. Some tocs seem to give a warning first to u18s caught without having paid the correct fare.

 

[MikeWh]

Thank you for the detailed reply, yes an out of Court settlement would be the best case scenario. Unfortunately I was not offered the option of paying a Penalty fare and have only learned what it was, otherwise I would have been happy to pay it on the spot. Do you think this would be relevant to the email or should I keep it as concise as possible?

Keep it concise with relevant facts. The most important thing is to show them that you are sorry to have caused them trouble and have learned your lesson.

 

[abj18]

OK. It is unlikely that they would prosecute a minor. In theory they could wait until you are 18 before laying papers before the court, but if you co-operate then that is unlikely.

Usually where a railcard has been forgotten you are sold a replacement ticket at full price and promised a refund on production of the railcard as long as you haven't already done this within the year. If that had been done then it would have been the end of it because you didn't have a valid railcard. I'm not exactly clear what process is being followed in your case, but if it is as you have said I would send a letter/email saying that you have discovered your railcard had actually expired. Express your apology and offer to pay the outstanding fare plus their costs in dealing with the matter. Then wait and see what they say.

Going forward, you are now known to them so you need to be especially careful about having the correct tickets and any supporting documentation (ie railcard).

Thank you for your reply, it has somewhat reassured me. I did offer to purchase a new ticket but they seemed to disregard it and just gave me the caution without offering any other option. I will definitely be more vigilant from now on.

 

[mikeg]

I'm not sure not being offered a penalty fare is relevant:

Firstly you were given the option to send in your railcard as a matter of discretion so that you wouldn't be prosecuted. They were probably planning on going easy on you.
Secondly a penalty fare is issued at the sole discretion of an authorised collector and can only be issued there and then.

 

[abj18]

I'm not sure not being offered a penalty fare is relevant:

Firstly you were given the option to send in your railcard as a matter of discretion so that you wouldn't be prosecuted. They were probably planning on going easy on you.
Secondly a penalty fare is issued at the sole discretion of an authorised collector and can only be issued there and then.

Thanks for the clarification. I will just stick to the facts the and say that my railcard has expired and I will pay any fees/administrative costs the deem appropriate and of course that I’m deeply apologetic about the situation.

 

[mikeg]

Thank you for your reply, it has somewhat reassured me. I did offer to purchase a new ticket but they seemed to disregard it and just gave me the caution without offering any other option. I will definitely be more vigilant from now on.

They are well within their rights to do this unfortunately. As I'm sure you have now learned it is your responsibility and nobody else's to ensure you have a valid ticket. I think the intention behind the way they are doing this is to 'let off' lightly anyone who genuinely forgets their railcard but to take more serious action against those who don't actually have one.

 

[abj18]

Thank you everyone for your replies, they have been very helpful. I do agree that ultimately this was my responsibility and they actually did offer a very fair solution considering the information I had told them. I will be sending the email soon and hopefully the outcome will be OK. I will also buy a digital railcard to prevent this from happening again. Will keep updated in case anyone else finds themselves in a similar situation.

 

[mikeg]

Personally I'm not a fan of digital railcards as at least paper ones don't run out of battery. I'd just suggest checking it before you buy your ticket, and checking you have it present before you board any train.

That said if you're sure a digital railcard would work for you, go for it.

 

[_toommm_]

I would advise against a digital railcard personally. While it is convenient as not many people forget their phones, if the servers were to go down or the app were to stop working (which it did for me roughly once a month), it's seen as your fault, and the Railcard group has put on the small print that they can't be responsible for technical errors even it if is their fault. I'm sure you will receive discretion from train companies but just be careful...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would advise against a digital railcard personally. While it is convenient as not many people forget their phones, if the servers were to go down or the app were to stop working (which it did for me roughly once a month), it's seen as your fault, and the Railcard group has put on the small print that they can't be responsible for technical errors even it if is their fault. I'm sure you will receive discretion from train companies but just be careful...

Exactly - whilst I very much doubt such small print would hold up if it came to a legal battle, it's not exactly what you want. I have a ticket wallet with all my tickets in and I simply take this with me every time I travel. Everything I need - Railcards etc. - is in there.

 

[rs101]

I would advise against a digital railcard personally. While it is convenient as not many people forget their phones, if the servers were to go down or the app were to stop working (which it did for me roughly once a month), it's seen as your fault, and the Railcard group has put on the small print that they can't be responsible for technical errors even it if is their fault. I'm sure you will receive discretion from train companies but just be careful...

I use the Railcard app - it doesn't require an active connection all the time. Just needs to have connected within the past 72 hours.

 

[_toommm_]

I use the Railcard app - it doesn't require an active connection all the time. Just needs to have connected within the past 72 hours.

You're not grasping the issue - it regularly says unable to connect (bearing in mind I have 60GB of mobile internet a month), there is an error please try again later etc., and that's on one of the newest smartphones out there...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You're not grasping the issue - it regularly says unable to connect (bearing in mind I have 60GB of mobile internet a month), there is an error please try again later etc., and that's on one of the newest smartphones out there...

Indeed - the Railcard app is very unreliable in my experience. As much as I would actually prefer to use it - and can live with the limitation that no battery = no Railcard = no valid ticket, the sheer unreliability, as well as the fact that the rail industry, rather unsurprisingly in line with most of their policies, has the policy that "not our problem if we break the Railcard app", means that I will definitely not be renewing my Railcard on the digital version.

 

[rs101]

Indeed - the Railcard app is very unreliable in my experience. As much as I would actually prefer to use it - and can live with the limitation that no battery = no Railcard = no valid ticket, the sheer unreliability, as well as the fact that the rail industry, rather unsurprisingly in line with most of their policies, has the policy that "not our problem if we break the Railcard app", means that I will definitely not be renewing my Railcard on the digital version.

I've not had any issues whatsoever with mine. Seems to be able to connect when necessary, either by Vodafone 3g/4g or Greater Anglia's free WiFi (Samsung s8+)

I tend to travel with my partner, so the app and my Railcard is also loaded on her phone. She's on a different network, so very little chance of both of us not having a signal.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I've not had any issues whatsoever with mine. Seems to be able to connect when necessary, either by Vodafone 3g/4g or Greater Anglia's free WiFi (Samsung s8+)

I tend to travel with my partner, so the app and my Railcard is also loaded on her phone. She's on a different network, so very little chance of both of us not having a signal.

I don't think the connection is so much the problem (though CrossCountry's UV window film, which incidentally blocks mobile signal, plus CrossCountry's revenue strictness, is a very bad mixture!). It's more that the Railcard servers simply have been broken by security updates, screwups etc. too many times. And during that time there have been reports that revenue staff have demanded that new tickets are bought. Typical anti-customer attitude, typical rail industry attitude - make the rail industry's problems the customer's problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the connection is so much the problem (though CrossCountry's UV window film, which incidentally blocks mobile signal, plus CrossCountry's revenue strictness, is a very bad mixture!). It's more that the Railcard servers simply have been broken by security updates, screwups etc. too many times. And during that time there have been reports that revenue staff have demanded that new tickets are bought. Typical anti-customer attitude, typical rail industry attitude.

Typically over-engineered software. A PKPASS type 2D barcode would be quite adequate; checking for multiple use etc would be done retrospectively.