Regarding off-peak trains in traditionally 'peak' times.

[toxicjames]

Hello,
I need to get the weekday 5am WVH-BHI service, which is operated by Virgin Trains and classified as off-peak.

Virgin sell a VT-only Anytime Single with no further validity restrictions (according to BR fares) for £3.80, or £2.50 with a railcard discount. Online ticketing engines don't show me this ticket for trains departing before about 10am, and I assume this is because YP railcard discounts are not permitted before this time (or only with a £12 minimum fare).

Would I be permitted to travel on this train with the discounted £2.50 fare, given that it is officially off-peak, or would I be better purchasing the £2.90 off-peak return and abandoning the return portion? Off-peak singles don't exist for this flow.

Naturally I don't want to seem as if I'm desperate to save £1.30, I genuinely consider navigating the minefield of fares in Britain to be a test of character.

Thank you all,

James

 

[SS4]

No, you'd not be allowed to travel for £2.50 on a Y-P railcard as the minimum fare is covered in the Railcard T&Cs - this applies equally to Anytime and Off Peak fares

Time restrictions are attached to the ticket, not the train and a WVH-BHI Off Peak ticket is not valid before 0930 so you're stuck with the undiscounted Anytime single

 

[maniacmartin]

As SS4 has stated, trains cannot be classified as Peak of Off-Peak. Only tickets can, and in the case of Wolverhampton to Birmingham International, the only off-peak ticket is a Super Offpeak Day Single, which is only valid after 18:30.

I'm afraid the cheapest way looks like the £3.80 undiscounted Anytime ticket (although Virgin have an easement regarding off-peak tickets that are railcard-discounted, but I don't think this applies before 10am - their website will show this if and when it applies, which it doesn't for this particular journey)

 

[bb21]

Easement only applies to SVR/SVS fares, hence not applicable in this case.

If travel is before 1000 with a 16-25 Railcard-discounted ticket, you will be liable for an excess to the full fare.

 

[LexyBoy]

[...]in the case of Wolverhampton to Birmingham International, the only off-peak ticket is a Super Offpeak Day Single, which is only valid after 18:30.

There's CDRs routed Any Permitted and Virgin TrnsOnly too, but no corresponding CDS. Both valid from 0930.

(although Virgin have an easement regarding off-peak tickets that are railcard-discounted, but I don't think this applies before 10am - their website will show this if and when it applies, which it doesn't for this particular journey)

The easement itself does apply before 1000, but I presume the minimum fare is still applicable (or at least wasn't considered when programming the easement into the booking engines). You could ask Virgin, but as bb21 points out the easement only applies in somewhat convoluted circumstances, such that it only applies to the Any Permitted ticket provided you, er, only use Virgin Trains services.

The Anytime (Day) tickets are a bargain anyway!

 

[toxicjames]

Thank you all for your help so far.
Given what you've said, I wonder if you could explain why on this VT leaflet concerning peak/off-peak times, Virgin specifically say that off-peak tickets are valid on the 0500 and 0524 towards London. Does this perhaps only apply to those holding off-peak passes of some kind?

http://trainsupport.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/291035/0/filename/OffPeak-restrictions.pdf

 

[LexyBoy]

Thank you all for your help so far.
Given what you've said, I wonder if you could explain why on this VT leaflet concerning peak/off-peak times, Virgin specifically say that off-peak tickets are valid on the 0500 and 0524 towards London. Does this perhaps only apply to those holding off-peak passes of some kind?

http://trainsupport.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/291035/0/filename/OffPeak-restrictions.pdf

The table is headed "Travelling TO London Euston". You are travelling to Birmingham International, not London Euston, hence the restrictions are not necessarily the same.

Also, the ticket you'd be using is not an Off Peak ticket, it's an Off Peak Day ticket. Despite the similar names (thanks to "simplification"), they are not in fact the same ticket type (no thanks to "simplification") and can (and often do) carry different restrictions. For example around the West Mids many Off Peak Day ticket have evening restrictions from Birmingham, whilst Off Peak tickets generally do not.

 

[bb21]

Thank you all for your help so far.
Given what you've said, I wonder if you could explain why on this VT leaflet concerning peak/off-peak times, Virgin specifically say that off-peak tickets are valid on the 0500 and 0524 towards London. Does this perhaps only apply to those holding off-peak passes of some kind?

http://trainsupport.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/291035/0/filename/OffPeak-restrictions.pdf

As others have mentioned, trains are not peak or off-peak as such a concept does not exist, contrary to some public belief.

It is tickets that have specific time restrictions attached to them. The poster is just a summary of time restrictions applicable to Off-Peak Single/Return tickets with various origins and the destination London Terminals.

If you have a ticket that is not from one of the stations listed to London Terminals, you need to check the restriction text for that ticket separately. The poster has no meaning in that case.

 

[toxicjames]

Again, thank you all for the clarification. You've steered me away from a few mistaken beliefs and reassured me that tickets and fares are every bit as complicated as I thought they were (for the non- or mildly-initiated).

Best wishes

 

[Goatboy]

Those seem like very well priced fares. £4 for a CDR on a 50 mile round trip Intercity journey? Is there a better value IC fare in the country?

It's cheaper than a return from Malvern Link to Worcester - a round trip of just 12 miles!

 

[island]

Thank you all for your help so far.
Given what you've said, I wonder if you could explain why on this VT leaflet concerning peak/off-peak times, Virgin specifically say that off-peak tickets are valid on the 0500 and 0524 towards London. Does this perhaps only apply to those holding off-peak passes of some kind?

http://trainsupport.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/291035/0/filename/OffPeak-restrictions.pdf

The ticket you are describing is an Anytime ticket, and the time restriction comes from your Railcard rules, not anything to do with peak times.

 

[34D]

Again, thank you all for the clarification. You've steered me away from a few mistaken beliefs and reassured me that tickets and fares are every bit as complicated as I thought they were (for the non- or mildly-initiated).

Best wishes

This forum runs periodic Fares Workshops, and the Birmingham area is one of the places that may have one. Its worth keeping an eye on here for details that may be announced.

 

[SS4]

Those seem like very well priced fares. £4 for a CDR on a 50 mile round trip Intercity journey? Is there a better value IC fare in the country?

It's cheaper than a return from Malvern Link to Worcester - a round trip of just 12 miles!

Probably to do with VT having to undercut LM, XC and even ATW on a route where the Any Permitted ticket is priced by Centro

 

[yorkie]

Again, thank you all for the clarification. You've steered me away from a few mistaken beliefs and reassured me that tickets and fares are every bit as complicated as I thought they were (for the non- or mildly-initiated).s

Railway ticketing is incredibly complex, with various rules "trumping" other rules, numerous easements (and even the oxymoron and legally dubious concept of negative easements!), none of us can get things right all the time, though between us, we generally come to a consensus (though occasionally there are issues that are so dubious that a consensus is not reached).

I got caught out when I told someone they could buy an off peak ticket to Manchester on a train departing York around 0130. In fact, they could... but only if they bought the ticket before midnight!

This forum runs periodic Fares Workshops, and the Birmingham area is one of the places that may have one. Its worth keeping an eye on here for details that may be announced.

Indeed. If anyone is interested please register your interest here. Manchester & Birmingham are winning so far.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I was in London on Friday and will be again on Monday. Thanks to the need for an early start yesterday I bought a Darlington- Kings Cross advance for the way down, then a London Terminals - Darlington SVR for the way back.

What I love is that my usual Darlington - KGX SVR has the first train I can use at 08:00, yet a KGX - DAR SVR lets me use any train into Kings Cross.....

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[island]

That's nothing. There are at least seven different sets of off-peak rules from London to Milton Keynes C.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

And woe betide any passenger who gets the myriad rules wrong! If you're lucky you might be let off. If you're unlucky you'll get Done because you are clearly a Fare Evader.

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