Reopening Ongar Discussion

[ATrainSpotter]

This is purely for discussion and probably wont happen, but with ULEZ being extended recently to all London Boroughs, I wonder if we could ever see the Ongar branch reopened? There's a lack of cross border connections and I feel personally this would encourage people to come into London. Thoughts?

 

[christopher]

Never in a million years...

 

[ATrainSpotter]

Never in a million years...

Why not? Plonk a huge car park in at Ongar and North Weld, make the aerodrome a attraction/museum while you're at it.. would get decent traffic?

EDIT: After reading this article it would seemingly also benefit the locals who reveal that they now drive to Epping/Debden to get into London which is another plus. Assuming cost wasn't a issue and it was funded, would it still be a bad idea?

EDIT EDIT: Epping and Debden Car Parks always seem full apparently too according to the reviews on Google, and a quick scout around both towns there doesn't seem to be a lot of space for expansion. Yet another case for the extension

 

[DanNCL]

TFL won’t fund an extension that’s entirely outside of Greater London so it would be down to the DFT or Essex County Council to fund it. The latter has suggested that they’d rather extend the Central Line from Epping via a new alignment to Harlow as that would have a better business case than reopening to Ongar. Even an extension to Harlow though is unlikely to happen.

Epping already has a large car park, reopening Ongar and building a car park there would simply change where people change to the Tube rather than encourage new people onto it.

Land acquisition is also an issue, as the Epping and Ongar railway would need to be evicted from the land, most likely via a compulsory purchase order. For a tube extension to two villages? It isn’t going to happen.

 

[bramling]

This is purely for discussion and probably wont happen, but with ULEZ being extended recently to all London Boroughs, I wonder if we could ever see the Ongar branch reopened? There's a lack of cross border connections and I feel personally this would encourage people to come into London. Thoughts?

Who is going to pay is the first big problem. London certainly won’t as it’s outside their area.

The second problem is how to reconcile the issue of it being a long single-track branch, so only capable of supporting a train every 40 minutes, maybe less if a passing loop were provided. All this at something of a performance risk to the Central Line - albeit one which could probably be squared up.

In a perfect world there’s certainly some merit to it, but it won’t happen. Ironically had Ongar remained as terminus of a mainline branch, I suspect it might actually be still open today with a service akin to what Braintree or Southminster get.

 

[rebmcr]

Epping and Debden Car Parks always seem full apparently too according to the reviews on Google, and a quick scout around both towns there doesn't seem to be a lot of space for expansion. Yet another case for the extension

That's just a side effect of them not being in Zone 9 like they're supposed to be (Essex subsidises them being in Zone 6 instead).

 

[ATrainSpotter]

Who is going to pay is the first big problem. London certainly won’t as it’s outside their area.

The second problem is how to reconcile the issue of it being a long single-track branch, so only capable of supporting a train every 40 minutes, maybe less if a passing loop were provided. All this at something of a performance risk to the Central Line - albeit one which could probably be squared up.

In a perfect world there’s certainly some merit to it, but it won’t happen. Ironically had Ongar remained as terminus of a mainline branch, I suspect it might actually be still open today with a service akin to what Braintree or Southminster get.

Perhaps boosting Central Line trains to go around the Hainault Loop if the track were to remain single branched, otherwise if it was double tracked I really don't see any issue with it? With Labour almost certain to come in, if the 2024 election keeps Khan, then there might be agreement between both and potential for funding?

Who is going to pay is the first big problem. London certainly won’t as it’s outside their area.

The second problem is how to reconcile the issue of it being a long single-track branch, so only capable of supporting a train every 40 minutes, maybe less if a passing loop were provided. All this at something of a performance risk to the Central Line - albeit one which could probably be squared up.

In a perfect world there’s certainly some merit to it, but it won’t happen. Ironically had Ongar remained as terminus of a mainline branch, I suspect it might actually be still open today with a service akin to what Braintree or Southminster get.

But what if they did, as part of a Mayoral initiative with surrounding counties or even the gov (as explained above) to dampen ULEZ outrage? The mayor currently is looking at Outer London but what is frequently criticized is that he isn't considering cross-border routes.

Epping's carpark, as mentioned, only has space for 5OO or so cars, lets say there are a average of 3 people per car 5OOx3=15OO. The station's demand averages at 5,OOO people per day.
Deben's carpark only has space 2O6 and averages at 3,OOO though many may be from the town.

Seems like a good reason to reopen and invest.

That's just a side effect of them not being in Zone 9 like they're supposed to be (Essex subsidises them being in Zone 6 instead).

So? The new line would probably also be in Zone Six or even in Zone Seven. There is demand.

 

[Magdalia]

but with ULEZ being extended recently to all London Boroughs, I wonder if we could ever see the Ongar branch reopened? There's a lack of cross border connections

The Epping and Hainault branches of the Central Line cross the Greater London/Essex border just north of Woodford. That part of Essex can also use the Elizabeth Line from Brentwood without crossing into Greater London.

Contrast that with the northern limits of the Jubilee, Northern and Piccadilly lines, all of which are inside the Greater London boundary.

That part of Essex should be grateful for what it has.

 

[LUYMun]

Do modern railways, let alone an Underground line, work side-by-side with a heritage line on the same bit of track? Not really, so extending the Central line would mean abandoning the heritage operations due to the presence of fourth-rail.

 

[annlodge12]

This is purely for discussion and probably wont happen, but with ULEZ being extended recently to all London Boroughs, I wonder if we could ever see the Ongar branch reopened? There's a lack of cross border connections and I feel personally this would encourage people to come into London. Thoughts?

I think this would be a great idea! It would make London more accessible and encourage people to visit from not only the surrounding areas, but further out too. I understand that there are many issues to consider in terms of funding and infrastructure, but I think it's worth exploring further. What do other people think? Has anyone heard or seen anything regarding potential plans for this? I'd love to hear more!

 

[SynthD]

It would make London more accessible and encourage people to visit from not only the surrounding areas, but further out too.

Which settlements are you thinking of? It’s a quiet area, well served by Chelmsford and Harlow.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I would love it to reopen. I spoke to someone in Essex County Council once who said the council did in fact support its reopening and had some documentation on it they offered to share with me (they never did), but as others have said its outside of TfL's area of scope. Just look at what happened with the MetLine extension to Watford...

 

[jon81uk]

Better investment would be trying to work down the pricing differential between driving to Epping and getting the Underground vs taking the National Rail train from Harlow/Chelmsford. Or Essex County Council actually running usable bus services.

Generally TfL are selling off car parks at stations so I doubt they would be interested in further encouraging road users to come to their stations.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This is purely for discussion and probably wont happen, but with ULEZ being extended recently to all London Boroughs, I wonder if we could ever see the Ongar branch reopened? There's a lack of cross border connections and I feel personally this would encourage people to come into London. Thoughts?

As Dan NCL has already mentioned, Harlow would be a better idea. 7 miles the whole way to Harlow Town station with a tube stop for northern Epping, southern Harlow, Harlow town centre, the local Princess Alexandra hospital and finally Harlow Town.
It would not just connect Harlow, a town of 93k, to London (you could sell off most of Epping station car park for housing, because most car park users drive in from Harlow), but also connect a great swathe more of East London to Stansted Airport with one change, as well as Cambridge and co.
You could solicit contributions from the Airport on that basis too.

 

[ATrainSpotter]

Why are you using O instead of 0? We have blind participants here who need their screen reader software to work properly.

It kept deleting my comments for some reason apologies.

 

[steeevooo]

Perhaps boosting Central Line trains to go around the Hainault Loop if the track were to remain single branched, otherwise if it was double tracked I really don't see any issue with it? With Labour almost certain to come in, if the 2024 election keeps Khan, then there might be agreement between both and potential for funding?


But what if they did, as part of a Mayoral initiative with surrounding counties or even the gov (as explained above) to dampen ULEZ outrage? The mayor currently is looking at Outer London but what is frequently criticized is that he isn't considering cross-border routes.

Epping's carpark, as mentioned, only has space for 5OO or so cars, lets say there are a average of 3 people per car 5OOx3=15OO. The station's demand averages at 5,OOO people per day.
Deben's carpark only has space 2O6 and averages at 3,OOO though many may be from the town.

Seems like a good reason to reopen and invest.


So? The new line would probably also be in Zone Six or even in Zone Seven. There is demand.

A lot to unpick here.

- Is there demand on the Hainault Loop to warrant an increase in services? Can the infrastructure even tolerate it?
- Epping to Ongar is single tracked, and any idea of finding the money and land to double track it is fanciful to say the least.
- Given that councils and TfL are mightily cash constrained as it is, spending a shed load of money on a scheme to reintegrate a poorly used branch extension to a couple of small settlements won't be particularly high up the priority list.
- Is the ULEZ outrage from North Weald and Ongar such that it merits spending multi-millions of pounds on this proposal?
- Cross border routes - Ongar and North Weald are, I would suggest, sufficiently far from the London boundary to rightfully not form a part of the Mayors consideration, and nor should they.
- Some very dubious calculations - an average of 3 people per car? It's far more likely to be 1 or maybe 2 people per car, driving to Epping/Debden as a part of their commute to work. Say 1.5 people per car and that equates to 750 and 309 people at Epping and Debden accordingly - nowhere near the numbers that you state
- North Weald and Ongar stations would not be in Zone Six or Zone Seven. Stations on the Epping branch are exceptional outliers that shouldn't even be in Zone Six - it's more likely that these would be re-zoned. Why on Earth would Ongar, a station that is at least 5 miles outside the Greater London boundary (and that's proabably being generous) be in Zone Six?!
- Finally, on top of all the above, you'll need even more money to purchase the additional trains that would be required to run the extension.

A lot of money for negligible gain - no surprise that it wouldn't pass a cost-benefit analysis.

 

[ATrainSpotter]

Contrast that with the northern limits of the Jubilee, Northern and Piccadilly lines, all of which are inside the Greater London boundary.

That part of Essex should be grateful for what it has.

I can't argue with that too much tbh. Consider it was funded though, (Essex County Council already wanted to fund a extension to Harlow) it doesn't mean we shouldn't fund extensions.

Which settlements are you thinking of? It’s a quiet area, well served by Chelmsford and Harlow.

I'm thinking more capacity sake so by those who visit Epping and Debden to park their cars, as well as from Chelmsford
Also the aerodrome at North Weld could be a attraction point.

Better investment would be trying to work down the pricing differential between driving to Epping and getting the Underground vs taking the National Rail train from Harlow/Chelmsford. Or Essex County Council actually running usable bus services.

Generally TfL are selling off car parks at stations so I doubt they would be interested in further encouraging road users to come to their stations.

But that is a really big problem. You're essentially cutting off access for a large majority of people unless they use public transport (which can't always be done easily or practically from remote areas).

- Some very dubious calculations - an average of 3 people per car? It's far more likely to be 1 or maybe 2 people per car, driving to Epping/Debden as a part of their commute to work. Say 1.5 people per car and that equates to 750 and 309 people at Epping and Debden accordingly - nowhere near the numbers that you state.

Exactly, I was being generous to the amount of car users anyway, realistically as mentioned a large majority are commuters. It makes the case even stronger as the demand is there for people to use.

- North Weald and Ongar stations would not be in Zone Six or Zone Seven. Stations on the Epping branch are exceptional outliers that shouldn't even be in Zone Six - it's more likely that these would be re-zoned. Why on Earth would Ongar, a station that is at least 5 miles outside the Greater London boundary (and that's proabably being generous) be in Zone Six?!

Why should the whole system be reassigned for a extension what? Zone 6 could be all the way in Scotland for all we know, its not restricted to anything.

- Finally, on top of all the above, you'll need even more money to purchase the additional trains that would be required to run the extension.

Assuming it was planned to be built at the same time as the New Tube For London upgrade, you'd just be ordering a extra few trains that would already be bulk ordered.

 

[jon81uk]

I'm thinking more capacity sake so by those who visit Epping and Debden to park their cars, as well as from Chelmsford

But if the price of trains from Chelmsford was more affordable then people would take the train into London instead of driving to a tube station. Part of the issue is that as Epping is in zone six it is relatively cheap compared to other stations outside the M25 and part of the issue is the government and County Councils don't want to manage National Rail and bus services properly in the same way TfL and the GLA/mayor do for London.

At present its about £27 for an anytime ticket for me to go Harlow to Liverpool Street. Or I can drive to Epping, pay £7 parking plus £11.20 tube fare. Is that because Greater Anglia are overpriced or the tube underpriced?

 

[popeter45]

rather than adding ongar back to the underground network, just reopen the link to epping and run a BEMU shuttle service

 

[Falcon1200]

Would there ever really be enough traffic from Ongar to justify destroying the preserved railway, re-electrifying and resignalling the route? Even when it was an integral part of the Underground Epping/Ongar was served by a shuttle of short trains rather than through services, such was the paucity of passengers, and LT could not wait to be shot of it.

 

[W-on-Sea]

The plausibility of the Ongar line serving as a functional part of the tube was done for when the Green Belt around London was founded (which is to say: before it even became a tube line). That was one reason why the Northern Line extension to Bushey Heath was scrapped. Regardless of any (at present purely hypothetical) potential for Ongar or maybe North Weald stations to serve as Parkways for a wider area (not sure where the car parks would go exactly), there isn't the density of population around there to make it worthwhile and the Green Belt means that there won't be, unless it's scrapped or reconsidered.

There are plenty of other reasons why reopening the Ongar line would be a waste of money, but to my mind that is the key one. It is also the case that when there was an all-day service to Ongar (not so much in the short lived 1990-era revival, but the fact it was short lived speaks for itself), fares were quite extraordinarily expensive compared with other parts of the Underground network.

 

[30907]

It kept deleting my comments for some reason apologies.

So use the Edit facility on your post and Save, please

 

[leytongabriel]

Which settlements are you thinking of? It’s a quiet area, well served by Chelmsford and Harlow.

One of the problems the old tube line faced was that the stations at Ongar and North Weald serve long linear settlements so in fact are not convenient for many users unless they are prepared for a stiff walk. Rumour has it that the line was only kept open as long as it was while the erstwhile nuclear bunker was still in service.

 

[ATrainSpotter]

rather than adding ongar back to the underground network, just reopen the link to epping and run a BEMU shuttle service

Even this would be a good alternative. Perhaps with Tube stock if they could electrify it? And maybe accept oyster cards lol, am I pushing it? On a side note, perhaps use some of the defunct vivarail stuff?

One of the problems the old tube line faced was that the stations at Ongar and North Weald serve long linear settlements so in fact are not convenient for many users unless they are prepared for a stiff walk.

A good point, I hadn't noticed that. But even so at least at Ongar there are bus services, abit not frequent.

 

[A0]

As Dan NCL has already mentioned, Harlow would be a better idea. 7 miles the whole way to Harlow Town station with a tube stop for northern Epping, southern Harlow, Harlow town centre, the local Princess Alexandra hospital and finally Harlow Town.
It would not just connect Harlow, a town of 93k, to London (you could sell off most of Epping station car park for housing, because most car park users drive in from Harlow), but also connect a great swathe more of East London to Stansted Airport with one change, as well as Cambridge and co.
You could solicit contributions from the Airport on that basis too.

And if you look at a map between Harlow and Epping you'll see there's pretty much nothing between them in terms of development. Extending the Central Line would change all of that and the corridor would end up being developed as the A10 corridor is between Cheshunt and Broxbourne or between Watford and Rickmansworth / Northwood for example.

There's no way a railway would be built through nowhere - it would trigger development on what is currently the green belt.

 

[jon81uk]

And if you look at a map between Harlow and Epping you'll see there's pretty much nothing between them in terms of development. Extending the Central Line would change all of that and the corridor would end up being developed as the A10 corridor is between Cheshunt and Broxbourne or between Watford and Rickmansworth / Northwood for example.

There's no way a railway would be built through nowhere - it would trigger development on what is currently the green belt.

Which is why the councillors trying to push for central line to be extended to Harlow didn't make any sense. Investing in lowering fares and providing a better service on Greater Anglia with decent bus links would be better.

 

[6Gman]

I would love it to reopen. I spoke to someone in Essex County Council once who said the council did in fact support its reopening and had some documentation on it they offered to share with me (they never did), but as others have said its outside of TfL's area of scope. Just look at what happened with the MetLine extension to Watford...

Councils always support reopenings*.

As long as somebody else pays.





* Until the local NIMBYs start complaining about noise/disturbance.

 

[AlastairFraser]

And if you look at a map between Harlow and Epping you'll see there's pretty much nothing between them in terms of development. Extending the Central Line would change all of that and the corridor would end up being developed as the A10 corridor is between Cheshunt and Broxbourne or between Watford and Rickmansworth / Northwood for example.

There's no way a railway would be built through nowhere - it would trigger development on what is currently the green belt.

Why would you need to build on the area in between Harlow and Epping?
There's a town of 93k at the end.
When the Met was built to Chesham, was the area massively urbanised beyond the M25?
Or the same for the Ongar branch pre-1994.
Harlow is forecast to grow even further to 130k and you'd get interchange traffic towards East London from Stansted and Cambridge. That is easily enough to justify the extension.

 

[jon81uk]

Why would you need to build on the area in between Harlow and Epping?
There's a town of 93k at the end.
When the Met was built to Chesham, was the area massively urbanised beyond the M25?
Or the same for the Ongar branch pre-1994.
Harlow is forecast to grow even further to 130k and you'd get interchange traffic towards East London from Stansted and Cambridge. That is easily enough to justify the extension.

Even if somehow they did extend the Central Line to Harlow, I doubt it would go all the way to the north side of the town to connect with the mainline station. More likely to be a new Harlow South or similar to reach a different catchment than the mainline.

 

[A0]

Why would you need to build on the area in between Harlow and Epping?
There's a town of 93k at the end.

Because that town of 93k already has a rail link to London and a second link running through open countryside will not a business case make.

When the Met was built to Chesham, was the area massively urbanised beyond the M25?
Or the same for the Ongar branch pre-1994.

The Ongar branch closed in 1994 having had a sparse service for many years. Part of the reason it had a sparse service is because planned developments which would have happened in the area didn't post WW2 - same is true of Chesham. It's also the reason why the extension of the Central Line to Denham was canned and the Northern Heights project extending the Northern Line from Edgware to Bushey. Basically all such lines relied on development to bring the custom - it didn't happen for any of them. Chesham has survived, Ongar was closed and the other two weren't built.

Harlow is forecast to grow even further to 130k and you'd get interchange traffic towards East London from Stansted and Cambridge. That is easily enough to justify the extension.

Why does a town of 130k "justify an extension" ? Northampton's a town of 250k and has a single station with 2 tph to London, Slough has a population of 165k and a single rail route into London.