Revenue Issue

[Tom Quinne]

I ended up at Cardiff Central on the 12th August 2018 without a ticket (my own fault).

Revenue staff stopped and interviewed me (I openly admitted the mistake (forgot my wallet) I had no intention to avoid the fare I made a human mistake.
I wasn’t offered a penalty fare or payment option via bill. Nor was the process explained to me or information given.

Fast forward to this week (18/11/18) I have received a letter from the revenue collection contractor asking me to make a written submission and provide any mitigation.

Again I’ve admitted my mistake and will accept whatever punishment that is coming my way.

The fare was £5.20.

Is there a maximum period between offence and first contact from revenue contractor ?
I’ve seen it on the Cardiff Uni student union advice page that they must make contact and ask for mitigation within 21 days of offence?

Is this correct ?

Like I say if they have acted correctly then fair play guv, but if they do need to make contact within a certain period which has expired making the offence void then obviously I’ll fight it.

Any advice would be great.

 

[gray1404]

Have you replied to the letter yet?

The train company has 6 months from the date of the incident to lay papers before the court.

 

[Elwyn]

I think your student union advice page is incorrect. The company don’t actually have to contact you at all. They can just obtain a court summons, and as gray1401 explained, they have 6 months in which to do that. Having said that, most companies do normally contact you before deciding on whether to proceed. But there’s no 21-day limit.

 

[swt_passenger]

21 days is the time you have to appeal if a Penalty Fare has been issued. Then they must respond to your appeal within 21 days of receipt of it. As you haven’t been given a Penalty Fare, then that is not relevant to your current situation.

 

[gray1404]

So most likely you will receive a letter from the train company or their agent asking for your side of the story. They normally do this. This should arrive within the next 6 months. They will ask for your side of the story and anything you wish to offer in mitigation. It may be possible to reply to this explaining the situation, applogising and asking for an out of court settlement at this point. It is important that when this letter arrives you come back here to let us know what it says and what laws or bylaws they are considering you have committed an offence under. We can help you draft any letter before replying.

Of course they do not have to write to you at all and could proceed straight to court proceedings, but this is not how they usually do this. As you were stopped at Cardiff Central would it be fair to assume you had traveled with and were stopped by a representative of Transport for Wales? As this is still a new train operator it will be interesting to see what approach they take. Formally Arriva Trains Wales would use a company called Transport Investigations Limited but we will have to see.

 

[krus_aragon]

I think this is the advice page in question. The figure of 21 days is mentioned in two sections. There may have been a misunderstanding over the following extract:

If you are reported, you should be given a leaflet explaining why you have been reported and what will happen next (link to example printed notice). The printed notice explains that you will be sent a letter from TIL setting out the details of the report made by the Revenue Protection Officer. You will be offered the opportunity to respond in writing within 21 days, giving an explanation and your version of events.

The letter you receive will give you the opportunity of responding within 21 days to receiving the letter, but it doesn't specify a time frame for when they'll send the letter to you. (The other reference is clearer, saying "you will receive a letter from the relevant company and you will have 21 days to respond in writing".)

It may seem unfair in the abstract that they effectively have up to six months to contact you (if they want to consider court proceedings), and you only get 21 days to respond. But that's the way it is.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Have you replied to the letter yet?

The train company has 6 months from the date of the incident to lay papers before the court.

Yes, I replied as instructed within 24 hrs of receiving their letter.

They replied that it could take upto 28 days for them to get back to me.

 

[Tom Quinne]

So most likely you will receive a letter from the train company or their agent asking for your side of the story. They normally do this. This should arrive within the next 6 months. They will ask for your side of the story and anything you wish to offer in mitigation. It may be possible to reply to this explaining the situation, applogising and asking for an out of court settlement at this point. It is important that when this letter arrives you come back here to let us know what it says and what laws or bylaws they are considering you have committed an offence under. We can help you draft any letter before replying.

Of course they do not have to write to you at all and could proceed straight to court proceedings, but this is not how they usually do this. As you were stopped at Cardiff Central would it be fair to assume you had traveled with and were stopped by a representative of Transport for Wales? As this is still a new train operator it will be interesting to see what approach they take. Formally Arriva Trains Wales would use a company called Transport Investigations Limited but we will have to see.

It was a GWR train, Arrvia contractor now TfW.

 

[swt_passenger]

So most likely you will receive a letter from the train company or their agent asking for your side of the story. They normally do this. This should arrive within the next 6 months. They will ask for your side of the story and anything you wish to offer in mitigation...

But that is the stage already reached, as is clearly stated in the first post.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I’m going to await my punishment, I just hope it’s proportional to the fare (£5.20).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I’m going to await my punishment, I just hope it’s proportional to the fare (£5.20).

The amount of the fare doesn't affect the level of the fine, unless you have caused "high revenue loss" (as that is a factor demonstrating greater harm, and thus likely bringing an offence into a category two, which has higher starting points and sentence bands). You might like to peruse the sentencing guidelines to get an idea of what any fine might be.

 

[najaB]

I’m going to await my punishment, I just hope it’s proportional to the fare (£5.20)

As per @ForTheLoveOf says, there is a standard scale of fines. This would be in addition to the fare lost. The TOC will only get the fare and costs, everything else goes to HM Government.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Few hundred quid then I reckon...

 

[Llanigraham]

If this goes to Court and you do not attend or do not fill in the Court papers about your income they will assume a "reasonable" wage, and typically fines in excess of £400 follow.
There have been several threads on here in the past citing examples of this.

 

[najaB]

Few hundred quid then I reckon...

For someone on a low income who plead guilty early it would probably be at the lower end of Band A - so say 33% of weekly income plus costs of around £80-100.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Sadly I’m not on a low income, so they’ll hammer me no doubt.

 

[Haywain]

Sadly I’m not on a low income, so they’ll hammer me no doubt.

As stated above, the fine is proportionate to income up to a maximum level so there is really no question of being 'hammered'.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Two observations:

1) @najaB and @Haywain are correct - if the matter ends up in court you'll most likely be looking at a fine of 33% of your weekly take-home income. The idea is to make fines proportional; you earn more, you can afford to pay more and feel a similar level of pain.

2) I have heard the argument in court that the defendant forgot their wallet. The prosecutor then asks if they were setting out or going home. If they were setting out, the next question is why you would set out on a trip without any funds or cards? Next question did you notice that your wallet was missing when you got on the train or when you arrived at the destination. Further question why did you not notice before you got on the train and should have bought a ticket?

Should a defendant claim they were returning, their home address may be examined and they may be questioned as to how they made the outward part of the journey.

Advice: Be honest with the investigators, be apologetic and offer to settle out of court covering their costs.

 

[pwharley]

Two points which you may have to explain to TIL at some stage:

1. You admitted you had forgotten your wallet, so you were not avoiding the fare - you didn't have a means to pay it.
Why did you board a train when you couldn't pay?

2. I assume you travelled from Newport. How did you get through the ticket gates without a ticket?

 

[Tom Quinne]

Two observations:

1) @najaB and @Haywain are correct - if the matter ends up in court you'll most likely be looking at a fine of 33% of your weekly take-home income. The idea is to make fines proportional; you earn more, you can afford to pay more and feel a similar level of pain.

2) I have heard the argument in court that the defendant forgot their wallet. The prosecutor then asks if they were setting out or going home. If they were setting out, the next question is why you would set out on a trip without any funds or cards? Next question did you notice that your wallet was missing when you got on the train or when you arrived at the destination. Further question why did you not notice before you got on the train and should have bought a ticket?

Should a defendant claim they were returning, their home address may be examined and they may be questioned as to how they made the outward part of the journey.

Advice: Be honest with the investigators, be apologetic and offer to settle out of court covering their costs.

All totally understandable, I don’t carry a wallet I keep a bank card in my phone case.
Either way I’m at fault so I’ll take whatever is coming - I’ve since brought a mobile ticket season so I’ll never forget it again.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Two points which you may have to explain to TIL at some stage:

1. You admitted you had forgotten your wallet, so you were not avoiding the fare - you didn't have a means to pay it.
Why did you board a train when you couldn't pay?

2. I assume you travelled from Newport. How did you get through the ticket gates without a ticket?

I know the barrier staff on duty through my previos employment as a train guard they waved me through, I don’t carry a wallet.

When I realised I didn’t have my card in my phone case I made my way to the excess Window at Cardiff offer payment on receipt of a bill, but I’m here now.

 

[Jayne W]

With respect, I would have thought that a former train guard would be more aware than others about the importance of holding a valid ticket.

You hadn't realised that when your former work colleagues waved you through the barriers that you hadn't stopped to buy a ticket?

Your actions may also cause trouble for them for letting you through the barriers without checking you had a ticket.

Were you on your way to work? If you haven't 't already I would advise your LOM of the situation, TfW may take it more seriously that a member of railway staff was travelling without a ticket.

 

[Tom Quinne]

In all honesty I really didn’t think, much to my cost now.

My LOM was informed that morning, and fully briefed on the situation in full.

 

[Llanigraham]

I seem to remember being warned when I started with NR that travelling without a ticket was taken very seriously by NR and could lead to dismissal, which was a pain around here because I knew all the staff and would often have to force them to take the money.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Hopefully (there’s a understatement) it won’t come to that, humans make mistakes regardless of background.

To dismiss someone for having a lapse of memory and making a mistake over a £5.20 fare would be grossly disproportionate, but we do seem to crack nuts wifh sledge hammers in all circumstances these days.

Easy to go after the geniuine people who make mistakes than the hardcore serial theives.