Royal Scot Identity Swap

[ZaphodScotsman]

At the beginning of this year, I found out on Discord that 6100 Royal Scot and 6152 The King's Dragoon Guardsmen keeping their swapped identities after the tour to America is actually myth. Is this true? If not, is there any actual evidence that proves they never swapped back?

 

[Taunton]

Drill holes in the frame for the attachment of USA fittings, like the bell on the front of 6000 King George V had, would be a starter.

There are quite a few "swapped identities" around. 4082 and 7013 is another.

 

[markindurham]

AIUI, the preserved 6100 is indeed originally 6152. Looking at stampings on the assorted rods should be a big clue.

Quite why they didn't swap back is a mystery, as 6220 and 6229 certainly did.

 

[Harvester]

AIUI, the preserved 6100 is indeed originally 6152. Looking at stampings on the assorted rods should be a big clue.

I don’t think a particular set of rods or motion would have been a permanent feature on a locomotive. By the sixties locos were regularly canabilised for replacement parts to keep others running.

A4 60007 runs with the rods and driving wheels from A4 60026 Miles Beevor, not those that Bill Hoole worked up to 112 mph in 1959.

 

[markindurham]

I don’t think a particular set of rods or motion would have been a permanent feature on a locomotive. By the sixties locos were regularly canabilised for replacement parts to keep others running.

A4 60007 runs with the rods and driving wheels from A4 60026 Miles Beevor, not those that Bill Hoole worked up to 112 mph in 1959.

Yes indeed - but it certainly wouldn't do any harm to look.

60007 was slightly different though - 60026 was taken to Crewe specifically to act as a 'Christmas Tree' for 60007. I suspect, and perhaps one of the 60007 gang can confirm? that the tyres on 60007 were thinner than those on 60026, and in 1967 replacing tyres was reckoned to be beyond preservationists. In fact, thin tyres was the main reason that Jubilee 45562 Alberta was passed over for preservation, despite her being otherwise in good condition and a bit of a 'celebrity' locomotive...

 

[Bevan Price]

I don’t think a particular set of rods or motion would have been a permanent feature on a locomotive. By the sixties locos were regularly canabilised for replacement parts to keep others running.

A4 60007 runs with the rods and driving wheels from A4 60026 Miles Beevor, not those that Bill Hoole worked up to 112 mph in 1959.

Yes. Back in the 1960s, it was common to see several different numbers stamped on rods / motion of steam locos.

 

[ZaphodScotsman]

Drill holes in the frame for the attachment of USA fittings, like the bell on the front of 6000 King George V had, would be a starter.

There are quite a few "swapped identities" around. 4082 and 7013 is another.

Are there any drill holes on the frame? I'm not sure how I'd be able to check

EDIT: I have tried looking up pictures, but so far, I've not seen anything resembling a drill hole on either the frame or smokebox

 

[Taunton]

The current smokebox did not go to the USA - the loco went with it's original large parallel boiler. This was later replaced in the Stanier-design rebuiding (for 46100 actually in early BR days) by a taper boiler. Furthermore the rebuilding is stated by some sources I now see to have used new frames as well, so most things that went to the USA were not carried forward at all, and in fact what we have now is a 1950-built locomotive. Looking at photographs, in the USA it seems to have had a bell, positioned the same as on King George V, and sometimes a cowcatcher ("pilot" in the USA) as well.

 

[markindurham]

Are there any drill holes on the frame? I'm not sure how I'd be able to check

EDIT: I have tried looking up pictures, but so far, I've not seen anything resembling a drill hole on either the frame or smokebox

Smokebox wouldn't mean anything, tbh - as the Royal Scot tour was with the locomotive in original, parallel boiler, condition. Also, smokeboxes themselves were/are regarded as occasional 'consumables'. The places to look would be on the top of the frame in front of the smokebox, where the bell was fitted and on/behind the bufferbeam, where the 'cowcatcher' was fitted.

EDIT - I posted this about 2 hours ago, but it's only just appeared? Taunton expands on what I posted - thanks

 

[Taunton]

EDIT - I posted this about 2 hours ago, but it's only just appeared

The wonders of technology

I wonder how the bell was operated. Was there a pull cord from the cab? I think the current automated USA rhythmic ding-ding-ding is a more recent invention.

 

[markindurham]

The wonders of technology

I wonder how the bell was operated. Was there a pull cord from the cab? I think the current automated USA rhythmic ding-ding-ding is a more recent invention.

It may well have been a simple pull cord, yes.

There's a story about the bell on KGV - some crews would wind up the unwary by telling them that if you put a shovel of coal right to the front end of the 'box, the bell would ring. When the victim tried, silence. The fireman would then put some in, and "Ding"

 

[Sm5]

Following its rebuild, which includes boiler, cab, tender and suggested frames.. chances of wheelset being original isnt high

I even read somewhere, parts of the motion are stamped 6399.

So I doubt their is much original left.

 

[Harvester]

Following its rebuild, which includes boiler, cab, tender and suggested frames.. chances of wheelset being original isnt high

I even read somewhere, parts of the motion are stamped 6399.

Those parts of the motion must have been well worn or more likely stored for decades, as Fury ceased to exist after 1935. Its frames were used to construct Royal Scot 6170 (later BR 46170).

 

[Sm5]

The wonders of technology

I wonder how the bell was operated. Was there a pull cord from the cab? I think the current automated USA rhythmic ding-ding-ding is a more recent invention.

A photograph here..

you can see the metal rod that attaches to the bell, and is held by a triangular brace, that connects to a further metal pipe going right along the top side of the running plate to the cab. Presumably this rocked forwards / backwards to ring the bell.

46100 Royal Scot (LMS 6100 & BR 46100)

This locomotive was built in 1930 at Derby as 6152 The Kings Dragoon Guardsman. In 1933 the LMS was invited to send a locomotive and train to the Century of Progress International Exposition in Chi…

preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com

6100 had several changes of appearance in the US /Canada.. it was dissassembled for transport and reassembled in Canada.

Record - Library and Archives Canada

Record - Library and Archives Canada

www.bac-lac.gc.ca

at various times it ran with cow catcher, and a special central chromed lamp iron with a hook to hold the coupling chain rather than letting it fowl the cow catcher. It also went with additional lamp irons on the smoke box sides, and of course was fitted with a headlamp & electric cabling for it.

It was later fitted with the bell (not all images show it present), but retained that hook for the coupler, so the base must have had a cut out to fit it, and presume the lampiron was cut off.. this was still present in its return when displayed at Bromwich, but the cable to operate the bell is gone, though the front mechanism was present.

Castle Bromwich Station: LMS 6P 4-6-0 No 6100 'The Royal Scot' complete with bell stands at the British Industrial Fair adjacent to the station

Interestingly the nameplate shows space for a crest when it reached Vancouver, but not present in all US images…

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/9/2/923801/ec3c406f-e782-469a-ba54-c1e76bd32b0a-A28601.jpg

in some later pictures it has the US fittings and the new nameplates commerating its visit, presumably these were at UK return but prior to returning to UK service (Inc the Castle Bromwich visit referred to above).

on its return, it had the bell but without mechanism, the front name plate “The Royal Scot” and bolts on the bufferbeam from the cow catcher, but the light and extra smokebox mounted lamp irons were later removed, and a new nameplate. It also had a new lamp iron sticking out infront of the bell.

LMS Royal Scot class 6100 passing Cheddington with an express service

Taken from a print in my collection, no further details available. Built by the North British Locomotive Co, entering service as LMS 6152 THE KING'S DRAGOON GUARDSMAN during June 1930. Exchanged identity with Royal Scot Class 6100 ROYAL SCOT prior to a tour of the United States of America in...

www.flickr.com

At Bressingham, it reacquired the bell, but lost the aws protection plate added by BR, and of course was a fully rebuilt condition. Interestingly if you look at 46100 in its condition today, the bufferbeam is again smooth, but riveted, including the front running plate.. its actually 46115 thats got holes filled all over it, and uses bolts not rivets on the front running plate, though I put that to 46115 being more “ex-BR” and 46100 having preservation era repairs.

doubtless theres more mods not mentioned here., as side of the rebuild of course.

finally, whilst not wishing fuel conspiracy rumours, but 6152 did develop a subtle change in appearance..
here in LMS red it has the outline of its centre lamp bracket, where it should be, front centre right next to the vac pipe, and of course that typical smooth front buffer beam..

6150-6169 built 1930 - Railway-Photography

railway photographs from the last 100 years

railway-photography.smugmug.com

but later in life its centre bottom lamp bracket is now offset to the right, and the bufferbeam has a lovely set of rivets in two symmetrical rows of 6 to the inner sides of the bufferbeam, as if they were previously used to hold something… this bears up on its rebuilt images.

c.1965 - Holbeck (55A) MPD, Leeds.

Best viewed Original size. Kingmoor (12A) shed's rebuilt Royal Scot class 7P 4-6-0 46152 (formerly named "The King's Dragoon Guardsman") receiving routine servicing at Holbeck (55A) MPD, Leeds, not long before withdrawal - c.1965. Originally built (North British, Glasgow, 1927) as LMS 6100...

www.flickr.com

I dont see an obvious reason for this uniqueness of 6152, but it doesn't infer anything, its just an oddity… but in that subject it would be unfair to miss this oddity out…if Riddles designed a 7P 4-6-0 is this what it would look like..

Railways - 46106 'Gordon Highlander' at Gloucester (Barnwood) Shed

Royal Scot class 4-6-0 No. 46106 'Gordon Highlander' at the ex-LMS Gloucester (Barnwood) Shed, 22B. This loco is the only member of the class fitted with straight smoke deflectors.

www.flickr.com

46106 with its BR Std smoke deflectors.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

There's a book published in the early 1970s about King George V which contains a list of the parts and where they originally came from. It reveals that a large percentage weren't originally from 6000, and quite a lot weren't actually from King Class locos.

A bit like "Trigger's Broom" .... !!