Running out of steam?

[Bittern]

First off, I want to state that I am 100% pro-heritage rail. I enjoy Heritage Railways more than I do the main line and have a much wider interest in them.

That said, I also have a few fears regarding them. One in particular doesn't regard those which already exist, but, strangely, regards those which still aren't around.

Back in the 60s when the standard gauge preservation movement took off with such things as the Bluebell Railway and Alan Pegler's purchase of Flying Scotsman, BR were withdrawing steam and axing lines left, right and centre and labeled this as "progress". This was great for the heritage side of things because it meant there are lots of lines to reopen and lots of locos to provide power. Dare I say the Beeching Axe, and other closure plans, indirectly saved many steam locos.
But with so many railways today, and no doubt many more to come, how long until we simply run out of steam locos?

I mean, there's no places like Woodham Bros anymore. Steam was withdrawn over 40 years ago. Sure, there's always diesel, but let's be honest here: Steam is what brings the public to the heritage lines, and thus is what pays the bills. Diesel, as unfortunate as this may be, will never attract the public like a steam loco does.

This leaves only one other option: New builds. Tornado is certainly the biggest achievement in preservation since, well, the Bluebell? There's plenty of other new build projects going on:Hengist, 82045, The Holen F5 just to name a few, but with the time and cost of each of these projects, is this really a viable solution?

 

[ACE1888]

Personally speaking there will come a time when new build (especially with Boilers) will become the only option, and yes, Steam is what the GENERAL public want, quite right there (i see myself as more of a 'Diesel' man actually) I feel another major problem (although attitudes are slowly changing) will be a possible skill shortages, more youngsters are needed throughout the movement NOW

 

[Christopher125]

There is no shortage of steam loco's - there are plenty of unrestored loco's, especially industrials, and New Build's have proved that any part of a steam loco can be replaced when neccesary.

Chris

 

[Yew]

Losing the traditional skills to make a steam loco... maybe

Losing the ability to make a loco, either re-learning the skills, or using modern technology. Nope

 

[sprinterguy]

It also worries me that there is surely only a finite number of times that worn parts on a steam loco can be repaired or replaced with new, and that the steam locos that are currently operating, acting as a direct link to the pre-1968 world when steam reigned supreme, may one day no longer be able to perform the function they were built for. New build is all very well, and I applaud the tremendous effort and energy that is going into all the current projects (“Tornado” is my second favourite steam loco after “Sir Nigel Gresley”, and I have donated to the 82045 project), but it would be sad to think of all the steam locos actually built in that past age being only fit for static display in museums.

The same worry can also be attributed to rolling stock. Mark 1 carriages have always been notorious for corrosion, and once again there is surely only a finite number of times that parts can be repaired or replaced. There is no longer a ready supply of redundant mark 1s available that can be used to replace other carriages in worse condition or can be stripped for spares to keep the existing operational carriages in operation. The mark 1 fleet we have now is primarily the operational heritage line and charter stock fleet that are all required for use.

Another problem is the limited amount of space at preserved railways. It is only finite, and as time passes there is going to be more and more items to preserve, and with nothing dropping out of the bottom end (preserved rolling stock doesn’t get withdrawn and scrapped, by dint of it being preserved) then the amount of space available to house these new exhibits will continue to decrease. Already, a number of preserved railways are starting to look like the model railway layout of somebody who has too many model trains and wants to display them all at once, with every conceivable nook and cranny of siding space stuffed with locos and rolling stock.

Finally, it is very sad to think about, but the original proprietors of the established preserved railways in the fifties and sixties, and their willing band of long standing volunteers, are now getting on in years, and without an unrealistic giant leap in medical progress then nobody lasts forever. I can only hope that there is enough “fresh blood” coming into preserved railways to volunteer to step into the shoes of those that went before.

The business of preserved railways is, overall, still quite young, and as I see it it is now reaching the end of its’ first stage of development. The momentum of the preservation movement has been successfully built up from nothing, and it is now that we will see if that momentum can be sustained for future generations with an increasingly aged fleet of assets. Fingers crossed. I am hopeful that the train will keep on rolling for many decades to come, and that the business of preserved railways can adapt to these changing conditions.

 

[Spagnoletti]

It also worries me that there is surely only a finite number of times that worn parts on a steam loco can be repaired or replaced with new,

Why? The preserved steam locos that are running have a fair bit in common with Trigger's Broom anyway - when something breaks you fix or replace it.
Bearings have to be replaced or re-metalled regularly anyway, boilers have to be stripped down and re-tubed, new parts have to be fabricated for the motion, etc etc. To be sure, some of the big bits are a bit spendy but I don't think anyone sees running a preserved loco, diesel or steam, as a way to make a living.

What is quite heartening is the fact that the skills appear to be distributed round the county, with many preserved railways becoming centres of excellence for specific engineering areas, and in many cases training up apprentices.

I expect there will be a significant thinning out of all those demic locos and rolling stock lying around, as preservation groups run short of cash or members, or when the boards or railways want their siding space back or decide to charge storage fees, but if that releases spares into circulation then fair enough.

 

[Spam Can]

Re your hertitage posting. There is another option that we all tend to miss.
The "stuffed" ones! Nearly all preserved railways have the locos that were restored & have now expired certificates and rather than attempt tp raise funds (which I'll come to in a minute) leave them languishing for years while lavish amounts are spent on small nondiscipt indusrial locos because they're easier to run/maintain. Ones that spring to mind are "Blue Peter", the pick of the NRM, (I think its criminal not to have the likes of "Green Arrow" & "Evening Star" up & running), plus some of the so called museum pieces such as "Glen Douglas"
Then we have the "Ones that got away" eg "Dominion of Canada" & the likes.
Why are we content to let these languish in foriegn museums is beyond me.

Then we have to finance these all back to some sort of running order.
Firstly there must be 200+ main line steam workings this year alone. The passengers on these are, by & large, quite affluent. (I could'nt afford to go on one of these trips personaly)! A collection, taken up, on board towards a restoration project would I imagine, not be a waste of time! Then how about dispatching a few collectors to the likes of Ais Gill, Shap, a few mainline stations ect to extract monies out of the hoardes of photographers who tend to frequent such venues for free when steam is on the menu. (There must have been 450 on & around Copypit summit on Saturday alone) In fact the NRM used to do just this, at York, 20 years ago when the original Scarborough Spa & Harrogate circrle specials 1st ran.
What we all really need is a pool of locos, medium & large, with main line cretificates, except when some of them run out, replace them with other, similar powered ones eg, a Standard 5MT replacing a Black 5 for instance & use a percentage of the revenue already earned towards towards the overhall of that particular engine.
Theres lots of other ways to raise the finance. The preservation movement already embraces film & TV but I'm sure a good marketing manager could encourage much more revenue from this sorce by way of getting advertising etc.
These are just some thoughts..I'm sure others will contribute as well!

 

[E&W Lucas]

This leaves only one other option: New builds. Tornado is certainly the biggest achievement in preservation since, well, the Bluebell? There's plenty of other new build projects going on:Hengist, 82045, The Holen F5 just to name a few, but with the time and cost of each of these projects, is this really a viable solution?

Not a viable solution at all. As stated above, there is no engineering reason why you cannot keep replacing life expired components. In fact, that is the only viable way to go. If you go for a new build, it has to comply with modern design requirements. 45428 at the NYMR has a almost new boiler, but it counts as a repair as some of the original was retained. The total rebulid of this loco cost about £600K. That is about 1/3 of what a new one would cost, so make your own judgment as to which option is more viable. I'm not bashing new builds - if people can raise the money, then good for them, but they are not the way forward for the preservation movement that some suggest (mostly people trying to raise money for a particular scheme).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Re your hertitage posting. There is another option that we all tend to miss.
The "stuffed" ones! Nearly all preserved railways have the locos that were restored & have now expired certificates and rather than attempt tp raise funds (which I'll come to in a minute) leave them languishing for years while lavish amounts are spent on small nondiscipt indusrial locos because they're easier to run/maintain. Ones that spring to mind are "Blue Peter", the pick of the NRM, (I think its criminal not to have the likes of "Green Arrow" & "Evening Star" up & running), plus some of the so called museum pieces such as "Glen Douglas"
Then we have the "Ones that got away" eg "Dominion of Canada" & the likes.
Why are we content to let these languish in foriegn museums is beyond me.

Then we have to finance these all back to some sort of running order.
Firstly there must be 200+ main line steam workings this year alone. The passengers on these are, by & large, quite affluent. (I could'nt afford to go on one of these trips personaly)! A collection, taken up, on board towards a restoration project would I imagine, not be a waste of time! Then how about dispatching a few collectors to the likes of Ais Gill, Shap, a few mainline stations ect to extract monies out of the hoardes of photographers who tend to frequent such venues for free when steam is on the menu. (There must have been 450 on & around Copypit summit on Saturday alone) In fact the NRM used to do just this, at York, 20 years ago when the original Scarborough Spa & Harrogate circrle specials 1st ran.
What we all really need is a pool of locos, medium & large, with main line cretificates, except when some of them run out, replace them with other, similar powered ones eg, a Standard 5MT replacing a Black 5 for instance & use a percentage of the revenue already earned towards towards the overhall of that particular engine.
Theres lots of other ways to raise the finance. The preservation movement already embraces film & TV but I'm sure a good marketing manager could encourage much more revenue from this sorce by way of getting advertising etc.
These are just some thoughts..I'm sure others will contribute as well!

Locos are "languishing abroad" because they have been donated to those museums. They are their property!!

Mainline running is not some form of goldmine. In fact, the margins are very tight indeed, and the costs of registering locos are ever increasing. There is also a limited amount of work for the locos to chase, especially the medium sized ones.

Raising Money - You're obviously not involved in preservation first hand! It's all been tried, and the larger railways already employ marketing professionals, and can call on the services of others from the ranks of their supporters. The Moors managed about £350k from individual donations for its bridge appeal. That's for an outfit with 350k visitors a year. Should give you an idea how hard such a task is.

What's happening loco wise, is that the key traffic machines are passing into the ownership of the major railways, as those that purchased them initially bow out. We're also starting to see unrestored Barry locos broken for spares. Sad, but inevitable. There are enough complete locos out there (including the non - runners), and without bothering with the National Collection. There is a lack of funding to return once overhauled locos to traffic. Every line has a row of out of ticket, complete, motive power. If any more are built, it is likely that they will simply join the queue awaiting overhaul in 10 or so years time.

 

[CosherB]

There is a massive pool of steam locos in UK, some running on heritage lines, some on heritage and the main line, and plenty of others not in running condition.

There is no shortage of candidates for restoration (I'd put forward Evening Star and Hamilton for starters). And any restored loco becomes, after a relatively short time in service, a candidate for re-restoration when boiler ticket expires ect!

A steam loco will last for ever... parts that wear out get replaced or repaired, and of course over the decades there may be little of the original left. But that doesn't matter - it was the same in BR days when major components like boilers were often swapped between locos. Today's steam locos could still be active 2,000 years from today, or 200,000 years if the money to keep restoring them continues to flow!

So there is no shortage of raw material (locos to restore). There may well be a shortage of funds to restore these locos in future, however, as the older enthusiasts like me die off and perhaps interest wanes?

That, I fear, is the real threat. Will today's kids be steam enthusiasts when they grow up, to keep the funds flowing that restore the locos?