• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Shall we end our tradition of setting point to point fares in the whole National Rail network?

Status
Not open for further replies.

miklcct

On Moderation
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
4,920
Location
Cricklewood
Our National Rail fare system generally has point to point fares set up between every station, i.e. each pair of stations in the network has a fare defined. Having to manage millions of pair of fares, loopholes are inevitable.

The Crossrail core has brought to the network the first batch of stations where no point to point fares are defined to the national network - only zonal fares are available.

My recent trip in Sweden involved a train journey involving a connection from a long-distance train to a local train, and the booking resulted in two fares (a long-distance advance purchase fare and a local transport fare) stuck onto a single ticket.

I really don't think it's necessary to define fares from all sorts of long distance stations to all sorts of local stations. For example, is it really necessary to define a fare from Salford Crescent to Shepherd's Bush? This is a journey which involves long-distance trains in between, but none of the origin and destination stations are served by long-distance trains.

Isn't it easier to define a "long-distance network", and various regional and local networks (which may overlap with each other), to cover all through trains in the national network, as long as every direct train journey belongs to a network from where the fare can be found?

For example, it is reasonable to have point-to-point fares set up for stations in the London & South East region which are served by the regional trains, for example, Farnborough to Barnham, or Eastleigh to Colchester, but I think it is an overkill by setting through fares from Bournemouth to Brondesbury, as Brondesbury is only served by local trains within the London zonal area (which zone-based fares are sufficient) and change is necessary. In this case, fare simplification can be done by cancelling all point-to-point fares within the zones and getting them replaced by zonal single fares, just like the Underground, with the options of National Rail only or National Rail + Underground, and tickets issued by the means of a ticket from Bournemouth to Clapham Junction (or London Waterloo or even Wimbledon) and another ticket within the zones together. Or in the case of Salford Crescent to Shepherd's Bush, issued as 3 tickets (a local ticket up to the point of boarding the long distance train, the long distance train itself, and a local ticket after alighting the long distance train).

In technical terms, the fare database format doesn't need to change - that in the process of generating fares, each station is assigned to a number of networks and the check is done that point-to-point fares are defined to every station belong to the same network as the origin (or appropriate zonal fares set up for a zonal network, such as London Zones 1 - 6), however, ticket retailers are required to produce a combination of tickets if a through fare can't be found, and the refund handling fee can only be charged per journey rather than per ticket.

The advantage of this proposal is to reduce the chance of fare anomalies, that passengers are required to buy a combination of tickets when changing trains between different locales, as under the current system many through tickets are priced higher than the corresponding split tickets, which can lead to travellers paying more money than they should.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
21,121
This shows a misunderstanding of how fares are set.

In technical terms, the fare database format doesn't need to change - that in the process of generating fares, each station is assigned to a number of networks
It already works like this for most walk up fares.

In your example of fares from Bournemouth to Brondesbury, the same fare applies for complete clusters of station pairs, in this case, the clusters are as follows:

Flow Origin Q197
Cluster
5875 BRANKSOME
5876 BOURNEMOUTH

Flow Destination Q062
Cluster
1404 ACTON CENTRAL
1438 BRONDESBURY PARK
1454 STONEBRIDGE PARK
9586 IMPERIAL WHARF
1415 KILBURN HIGH RD
1447 KENSAL GREEN
1457 WILLESDEN JN
9587 SHEPHERDS BUSH
1419 QUEENS PARK(LDN)
1448 KENSAL RISE
1521 HARLESDEN
1423 WEMBLEY CENTRAL
1451 SOUTH HAMPSTEAD
3092 KENSNGTN OLYMPIA
1437 BRONDESBURY
1452 SOUTH ACTON
8875 WEST BROMPTON

The same fare is set for journeys between any pair of origin and destination stations on these lists.

https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=BMH&dest=BSY

Isn't it easier to define a "long-distance network", and various regional and local networks (which may overlap with each other), to cover all through trains in the national network, as long as every direct train journey belongs to a network from where the fare can be found?
Some people would like to see journeys like Branksome to Brondesbury priced on the basis of local fare plus long distance fare plus local fare, with the long distance fare priced as an advance and the two local ones using a Contactless type set up. Indeed, that is sometimes what works out cheapest. However, we don't have that sort of segmentation in this country as the long distance train becomes local at the Bournemouth end.

The advantage of this proposal is to reduce the chance of fare anomalies, that passengers are required to buy a combination of tickets when changing trains between different locales, as under the current system many through tickets are priced higher than the corresponding split tickets, which can lead to travellers paying more money than they should.
Your proposal doesn't do that for current walk up fares in most cases. It might do where advances are involved for the trunk part of the journey.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
32,815
Our National Rail fare system generally has point to point fares set up between every station, i.e. each pair of stations in the network has a fare defined. Having to manage millions of pair of fares, loopholes are inevitable.
No it really doesn’t. Try searching for “fares cluster” in these forums.
 

miklcct

On Moderation
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
4,920
Location
Cricklewood
No it really doesn’t. Try searching for “fares cluster” in these forums.
This is not my point. My point is that if a through fare is set by one company, loopholes will form if it involves segments which are normally priced by another company due to different pricing strategies.

For my Branksome - Brondesbury example, the Branksome - Clapham Junction segment will have one price as it belongs to the same network (South East regional network) and the Overground segment will have another price (London local network).
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
21,121
This is not my point. My point is that if a through fare is set by one company, loopholes will form if it involves segments which are normally priced by another company due to different pricing strategies.
Aren't fare levels going to be set centrally by GBR at some point in the future?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top