Sheffield and the North West: how could services be improved?

[yorkie]

I totally agree with the points made about changing trains being a hassle. It is. I've seen too many people miss connections, even ones that weren't particularly tight, and then there's the advance ticketing issues and TOC specific tickets etc. A minefield.

So, I try and go on direct services wherever possible, even if it means driving to a different station so I can take a direct service from there. The Hope Valley line isn't renowned for its punctuality or reliability. I avoid it as much as possible.

Excellent points.

I won't restate my views on this, but will point out (in case anyone has missed it), that there are several threads where I've stated the importance of maintaining connections (not to any avail; the industry won't listen to any of us!), including:

Four elderly ladies thrown off Northern train

Well I don’t know about you, but if you have a busy (the busiest in London) mass transit line, force hordes off people off one branch onto an other whilst an empty train is waiting on the platform, it should be the case such train scoops up said passengers leaving the platform clear for the next...

www.railforums.co.uk

Do direct London services actually matter?

It seems that most towns and cities across the UK seem to desire a direct London service. Wouldn’t better connecting services to London trains be better for places like Cleethopes and Sunderland which aren’t very big in themselves and could do with better local services anyway?

www.railforums.co.uk

Train dispatched as I was pressing the button to open the doors

I've never heard of that! I believe it's a myth; the only people I've seen say this are railway staff, rather than non-staff passengers. People also seem happy in places where the trains are available to board up to the advertised departure time; I've never ever known anyone complain when the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Windermere connection at Oxenholme

Yesterday, Sat 12th, I was on the 8.58 TPE from Preston which gave an advertised 5 minute connection into the 9.32 to Windermere. Arrival at Oxenholme was delayed to 9.34. To my surprise and disappointment, and that of other passengers, the Windermere train had not waited but had departed on...

www.railforums.co.uk

News report: At King's Cross, train details will be deleted from departure boards three minutes before they leave.

It applies to all services including the Great Northern ones.Thursday they were also getting removed from the departure board 3 minutes before (or in the case of the 1227 London Kings Cross - Cambridge at least 7 minutes before because it was actually late leaving) I’m surprised at that, I’ll...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Iskra]

While a direct train is obviously preferable, rather than an over-complicated abundance of trains to an abundance of destinations, I’d prefer an economic solution to help grow passenger confidence with this issue. Quite simply- for every (sensible) change a passenger has to make beyond one change, a 10% discount should be applied to the standard ticket price. I think that would encourage travel and incentivise customers to be bolder in their travel planning or stomach the inconvenience. It would also help rail compete better with the car economically over longer distances without resorting to split ticketing.

 

[A S Leib]

Quite simply- for every (sensible) change a passenger has to make beyond one change, a 10% discount should be applied to the standard ticket price

I'm guessing that by sensible you mean that, for example, you couldn't get a 10% discount for buying a ticket from Stourbridge Town to Hereford rather than from Stourbridge Junction?

 

[cle]

From Sheffield - you have Stockport, Manchester, Warrington and Liverpool as the main destinations. And Airport.

I can’t really see what is missing from a main destination POV. Wigan and Preston are middling and yes offer lots of connections but many can be picked up elsewhere. East Lancs probably the biggest gap as all out of Victoria. But not a major area in itself.

That said, family/friends and work connections do see people needing to go everywhere.

My ‘hot take’ here would be to utilize the Crewe-Derby line more for the East Midlands / South Yorkshire connections. Notably Crewe, which unlocks a lot of the West/Wales. Possibly a service from Derby could get to Chesterfield and Sheffield. This route feels underused as a ‘XC’ line.

 

[JonathanH]

My ‘hot take’ here would be to utilize the Crewe-Derby line more for the East Midlands / South Yorkshire connections. Notably Crewe, which unlocks a lot of the West/Wales. Possibly a service from Derby could get to Chesterfield and Sheffield. This route feels underused as a ‘XC’ line.

Maybe the line through Uttoxeter is underused, but Crewe to Alsager is single track with two passenger trains an hour, there are already five passenger trains most hours between North Stafford Junction and Derby, five passenger trains an hour from Derby to Ambergate Junction, six passenger trains an hour from Chesterfield to Sheffield and nine passenger trains an hour from Dore Station Junction to Sheffield. Does another one fit?

 

[fishwomp]

Before I drove, I used to travel via Huddersfield to Manchester rather than via the Hope Valley. The Standedge route is much quicker from North Sheffield, especially for the communities near one of the Penistone line stations. Totally prefer it.

That said, since I started driving I tend to use Dinting as my railhead for the North West, which cuts another half hour from my journey time.

How did we get here and no-one mentioned W******d all day?

 

[BranstonJnc]

As one of the country's largest cities, why has Sheffield got no direct services to the North West, apart from Manchester?

I see there is one direct passenger train a week from Sheffield to Carlisle, and apart from that, nothing. No direct trains to places like Preston or Blackpool or further north towards Glasgow. There are no direct trains from Sheffield to places like Chester and North Wales.

Has it always been like this?

I know that all stations cannot have direct services to everywhere, but Sheffield is not some backwater in the middle of now ware, it's one of the largest cities in the country, and people want direct services, not changing everywhere.

If I lived in Sheffield, I would have a preference for my half-hourly service to Liverpool, all via Warrington, in such a way as I can just rock up and have an almost Metro-style frequency to Oxford Road, Warrington and Liverpool.

Even Leeds doesn't have 'proper' Intercity or good services to the North West - a crumby 2 car 150 to Lancaster four times a day or whatever it is, and an often overcrowded unit all stops up the Settle & Carlisle. Okay, you've got the Blackpool over the Copy Pit, but even that is quite rubbish.

The key thing with a really good frequency (every 30 mins) to Piccadilly and Liverpool is you will never wait at Manchester more than 29 minutes (theoretically) for an Intercity service to Preston, and up to Scotland. Warrington, if it got a slightly better walking route, would also be a good connecting place.

 

[A S Leib]

Even Leeds doesn't have 'proper' Intercity or good services to the North West - a crumby 2 car 150 to Lancaster four times a day or whatever it is, and an often overcrowded unit all stops up the Settle & Carlisle. Okay, you've got the Blackpool over the Copy Pit, but even that is quite rubbish.

Apart from the intercity Liverpool services, Cheshire's still in the North West as well. I don't know how good the Leeds to Chester service generally is though, and Crewe to north / east of Manchester's seemed like a (slight; there aren't many places with links to Crewe without services to Manchester anyway) gap to me. I suspect Manchester Airport's more popular as a direct destination from Crewe, and I don't know how much capacity is left through Styal.

is you will never wait at Manchester more than 29 minutes (theoretically)

Isn't the theoretical maximum wait time ~60/(tph) + connection time, so 39 minutes in Manchester Piccadilly's case?

 

[Iskra]

If I lived in Sheffield, I would have a preference for my half-hourly service to Liverpool, all via Warrington, in such a way as I can just rock up and have an almost Metro-style frequency to Oxford Road, Warrington and Liverpool.

Even Leeds doesn't have 'proper' Intercity or good services to the North West - a crumby 2 car 150 to Lancaster four times a day or whatever it is, and an often overcrowded unit all stops up the Settle & Carlisle. Okay, you've got the Blackpool over the Copy Pit, but even that is quite rubbish.

The key thing with a really good frequency (every 30 mins) to Piccadilly and Liverpool is you will never wait at Manchester more than 29 minutes (theoretically) for an Intercity service to Preston, and up to Scotland. Warrington, if it got a slightly better walking route, would also be a good connecting place.

Bentham Line gets 158’s these days, including 3 carriage versions.

I don’t think you can really criticise Leeds’ links to Manchester.

 

[JD2168]

Being from Sheffield it can feel annoying having to change at Manchester if going to Blackpool when you have through trains to Leeds & York, especially if one is delayed/cancelled. The plus is if you time it right you just need to wait at Platform 13/14 for a train to get on.

The more annoying bits is when you have to go into the main building which is awkward particularly if one or more passengers in the group is elderly or uses a wheelchair/pushchair.

Destinations people can use from Sheffield to west side are:
Blackpool - day trippers & holidaymakers.
Chester for the Zoo mainly, yes there is the Wildlife Park at Doncaster but Chester is much bigger & also access to Wales particularly for holidaymakers.
Lake District for holidaymakers.

Perhaps it would be better to have one of the Liverpool trains go elsewhere like Blackpool to give an alternative destination

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't understand all this talk of linking Sheffield with Blackpool. One market that has been steadily declining all my life is domestic beach traffic. See the thread about EMR feeling that Skegness demand no longer justifies the traditional extras. IME most such demand from Sheffield is for Bridlington and Cleethorpes, both of which have direct services. Things right now may be far from perfect but trying to turn the clock back and reintroducing old through services is not going to help.

 

[Killingworth]

I don't understand all this talk of linking Sheffield with Blackpool. One market that has been steadily declining all my life is domestic beach traffic. See the thread about EMR feeling that Skegness demand no longer justifies the traditional extras. IME most such demand from Sheffield is for Bridlington and Cleethorpes, both of which have direct services. Things right now may be far from perfect but trying to turn the clock back and reintroducing old through services is not going to help.

Or happen!

 

[158756]

If I lived in Sheffield, I would have a preference for my half-hourly service to Liverpool, all via Warrington, in such a way as I can just rock up and have an almost Metro-style frequency to Oxford Road, Warrington and Liverpool.

Even Leeds doesn't have 'proper' Intercity or good services to the North West - a crumby 2 car 150 to Lancaster four times a day or whatever it is, and an often overcrowded unit all stops up the Settle & Carlisle. Okay, you've got the Blackpool over the Copy Pit, but even that is quite rubbish.

The key thing with a really good frequency (every 30 mins) to Piccadilly and Liverpool is you will never wait at Manchester more than 29 minutes (theoretically) for an Intercity service to Preston, and up to Scotland. Warrington, if it got a slightly better walking route, would also be a good connecting place.

This raises an interesting question though, how relevant is frequency when the railway is moving away from walk up tickets? If the vast majority of passengers cannot use the next train without buying a new ticket, do they really care if that train is in 30 minutes, an hour, or some random odd interval? The railway has generally moved towards frequent clockface timetables, while simultaneously reducing the number of passengers who can make use of them.

Setting aside the reliability issues for a moment, is there actually a case that once or twice a day journeys to different destinations would attract more customers nowadays, given most people's reluctance to change trains and that most people travelling any distance are buying tickets only valid on one train anyway?

 

[yorkie]

This raises an interesting question though, how relevant is frequency when the railway is moving away from walk up tickets? If the vast majority of passengers cannot use the next train without buying a new ticket, do they really care if that train is in 30 minutes, an hour, or some random odd interval? The railway has generally moved towards frequent clockface timetables, while simultaneously reducing the number of passengers who can make use of them.

Setting aside the reliability issues for a moment, is there actually a case that once or twice a day journeys to different destinations would attract more customers nowadays, given most people's reluctance to change trains and that most people travelling any distance are buying tickets only valid on one train anyway?

Most people travel on flexible fares as they make shorter distances though; a lot of people are put off longer distance travel due to various factors (cost, connections, lack of comfort, etc).

Sadly, I see no potential solution in sight; the DfT don't want too many people to use the railways, due to the costs involved. The 'powers that be' seem to be opposed to various measures that would make the overall system more attractive.

 

[fishwomp]

I don't understand all this talk of linking Sheffield with Blackpool. One market that has been steadily declining all my life is domestic beach traffic. See the thread about EMR feeling that Skegness demand no longer justifies the traditional extras. IME most such demand from Sheffield is for Bridlington and Cleethorpes, both of which have direct services. Things right now may be far from perfect but trying to turn the clock back and reintroducing old through services is not going to help.

Exactly. There are essentially two reasons to travel - leisure or business.

For business, you need to connect workers to jobs and businesses to businesses. That's adjacent communities to cities/towns, and cities/towns to each other. This is the fundamental of running the railway business. There will be very few Blackpool residents working in Sheffield or vice-versa, but there are many Sheffield-region workers who commute to Manchester and probably vice-versa.

There are businesses to connect, and airports to cities for Sheffield to Liverpool and Manchester - but few businesses in Blackpool with business to transact in Sheffield.

For leisure - the airports and the cities are the attractions all year round, and during the illuminations and summer, Blackpool still has some appeal but it's not the destination that it was 30+ years ago.

 

[cle]

Blackpool is not a major player in rail, as relates to demand: its main station North doesn’t even have 2m users, it’s not remotely important nationally.

And ultimately, it’s fairly horrible / not fit for what people look for today.

The population’s outbound demand is equally thin. It’s disproportionately discussed on here.

 

[Killingworth]

There's one unsatisfied North West direct destination that is demanded from Sheffield. I regularly use all 3 current services and don't need to ask where that is.

The large and small wheeled items of luggage give it away. Until the Castlegate meltdown there was an hourly direct service to Manchester Airport. Since the direct service was diverted to Liverpool in December 2022, and after Covid, passenger numbers are down by a big margin, see my post 7 above.

Liverpool passenger numbers have increased over pre-Covid lending weight to the value of through services.

The prectical difficulties of the Piccadilly reversal for the Airport have been debated in previous threads. Without more capacity in and around Manchester we can talk about our desires for direct services as much as we like. They all get tied in knots through and adjacent to the Castlefield.conundrum.

Any connections required between Piccadilly and Victoria are a very bad joke! Through Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly are a nightmare.

The Airport is the one North West destination with very clear and obvious demonstrable demand from Sheffield, and that's 24/7 all year round. I live within walking distance of what could be an hourly direct train, one that existed until December 2022.

I last used 2 Northern trains to reach the airport and they worked well. The airport itself deters me more than the trains, but 13/14 were quiet on that day. I use the car most times!

 

[A S Leib]

Any connections required between Piccadilly and Victoria are a very bad joke!

It doesn't help that there's only one Metrolink line and one hourly train between them, but I wonder if having a 37 minute connection time is harmful as well. Most passengers probably either make local or regular journeys and don't use journey planners at all, and lots of the remainder probably use Google Maps etc. which I don't think account for official connection times, but I doubt it's particularly useful to see what looks like a wait of close to an hour in Manchester to get from Sheffield to Blackburn (as a possible example).

I know that the connection times need to account for passengers who have difficulties walking from the furthest apart areas of each station, but 37 minutes in this case still seems slightly excessive.

 

[fishwomp]

It doesn't help that there's only one Metrolink line and one hourly train between them, but I wonder if having a 37 minute connection time is harmful as well.
[..]
I know that the connection times need to account for passengers who have difficulties walking from the furthest apart areas of each station, but 37 minutes in this case still seems slightly excessive.

Google says 20 mins, and that seems about right - brisk walk - but that's if you arrive in Pic platform 1-12, and are sitting next to the driver, and get through the barriers with no queue. At Victoria you'd need to be on a platform near the barrier. A Piccadilly platform 13/14 arrival is going to be +4 minutes, approx, and an over-the-bridge Victoria departure (I would still refer to the old platform numbers as it's not a station I frequent) would be another +2.

So, seems about right, if you add connection time too - at best they could say 30 mins. Yeah, I know, the thread is now going to have about ten people jump on saying they can do it in 12 minutes, and once did it in 4 with a fair wind etc etc...

 

[BranstonJnc]

There is one unsatisfied North West direct destination that Iis demanded from Sbeffield. I regularly use all 3 current services and don't need to ask where it is.

The large and small wheeled items of luggage give it away. Until the Castlegate meltdown there was an hourly direct service to Manchester Airport. Since the direct service was diverted to Liverpool and after Covid passenger numbers are down by a big margin, see my post 7 above.

Liverpool passenger numbers have increased over pre-Covid lending weight to the value of a through service.

The prectical difficulties of the Piccadilly reversal for the Airport have been debated in previous threads. Without more capacity in and around Manchester we can talk about our desires for direct services as much as we like but they all get tied in knots through and adjacent to the Castlefield.conundrum.

Any connections required between Piccadilly and Victoria are a very bad joke! Through Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly are a nightmare.

The Airport is the one North West destination with very clear and obvious demonstrable demand from Sheffield, and that's 24/7 all year round. I live within walking distance of what could be an hourly direct train, one that existed until December 2022.

I last used 2 Northern trains to reach the airport and they worked well. The airport itself deters me more than trains, but 13/14 were quiet on that day. I use the car most times!

A half-hourly service from Sheffield to Piccadilly, particularly onto Platform 14, and allowing good connections onto those 6 car Blackpool - Airports and the like, is perfectly fine.

 

[The Planner]

Blackpool is not a major player in rail, as relates to demand: its main station North doesn’t even have 2m users, it’s not remotely important nationally.

And ultimately, it’s fairly horrible / not fit for what people look for today.

The population’s outbound demand is equally thin. It’s disproportionately discussed on here.

Its incredibly useful for hiding trains that you do not want hanging around in Preston as well as the fact the depot is down there.

 

[Killingworth]

Google says 20 mins, and that seems about right - brisk walk - but that's if you arrive in Pic platform 1-12, and are sitting next to the driver, and get through the barriers with no queue. At Victoria you'd need to be on a platform near the barrier. A Piccadilly platform 13/14 arrival is going to be +4 minutes, approx, and an over-the-bridge Victoria departure (I would still refer to the old platform numbers as it's not a station I frequent) would be another +2.

So, seems about right, if you add connection time too - at best they could say 30 mins. Yeah, I know, the thread is now going to have about ten people jump on saying they can do it in 12 minutes, and once did it in 4 with a fair wind etc etc...

Not being familiar with the details I tried it for a first, and probably only, time last month.

Rammed platforms 13/14 with queue for the bridge (horrendous for anyone disabled) and then scrum from there as one travelator was cordoned off.

No signage I saw at any point in Piccadilly directing to Victoria (but I was negotiating heavy foot traffic).

No clear signage to explain the Metro option. No clear signage to explain the free bus connection.

So I kept on past the Metro option, found the free buses, checked for and found the one I needed - just as it was pulling out.

It was a nice day so I spotted the first sign posts and started walking. At some point I must have missed one, looking at the sights and avoiding traffic.

Finally arriving at Victoria I discovered I needed the platform farthest away. Missed my train, an hour to wait. Would have been quicker going via Leeds!

I observed the lovely old route map on the wall and had a coffee. Now know why a friend from Romiley travels to Leeds via Sheffield rather than Manchester!

Railways worked well enough at the time that old map was produced, before most had access to cars. At the time it was brilliant. The remaining 'modern' railway is not fit for the modern world.

A half-hourly service from Sheffield to Piccadilly, particularly onto Platform 14, and allowing good connections onto those 6 car Blackpool - Airports and the like, is perfectly fine.

It is fine at quiet times when everything is on time. It's not fine far too often when 13/14, the stairs, walkways and the circulation space above are full, many of those travellers unfamiliar with locations and language.

Perfectly fine it is not at almost any time.

 

[Mat17]

I can never find Victoria. I'm okay until I get the the Arndale Centre and then I always go the wrong way, without fail. It usually takes me a good twenty minutes to find from the Arndale. Having walked the long trek from Piccadilly to there in about 10 minutes.

 

[Class15]

As has been pointed out by others, changing trains would work a lot better if connections were actually held. For example on Friday I took a train from Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside. We closed our doors just as the Clapham Junction to Stratford train opened its doors on the adjacent platform. Completely different area of the country I know but it shows how poor the system is.

 

[A S Leib]

I can never find Victoria. I'm okay until I get the the Arndale Centre and then I always go the wrong way, without fail. It usually takes me a good twenty minutes to find from the Arndale. Having walked the long trek from Piccadilly to there in about 10 minutes.

Having said that the connection time's too long, I agree that better signs are needed. I've missed a train before having gone the wrong way from the Arndale Centre, let alone from Piccadilly.

 

[Killingworth]

Having said that the connection time's too long, I agree that better signs are needed. I've missed a train before having gone the wrong way from the Arndale Centre, let alone from Piccadilly.

It's a lot easier gettiing from Victoria to Piccadilly with Metrolink. It's much more visible running from within the station, although signage of the connection could be clearer.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Not being familiar with the details I tried it for a first, and probably only, time last month.

Rammed platforms 13/14 with queue for the bridge (horrendous for anyone disabled) and then scrum from there as one travelator was cordoned off.

No signage I saw at any point in Piccadilly directing to Victoria (but I was negotiating heavy foot traffic).

No clear signage to explain the Metro option. No clear signage to explain the free bus connection.

So I kept on past the Metro option, found the free buses, checked for and found the one I needed - just as it was pulling out.

It was a nice day so I spotted the first sign posts and started walking. At some point I must have missed one, looking at the sights and avoiding traffic.

Finally arriving at Victoria I discovered I needed the platform farthest away. Missed my train, an hour to wait. Would have been quicker going via Leeds!

Agreed, it's not the best connection to make. People often book tickets from South to North (and presumably vice versa) without realising that their connection in Manchester involves to separate stations on opposite sides of the city centre.

It is fine at quiet times when everything is on time. It's not fine far too often when 13/14, the stairs, walkways and the circulation space above are full, many of those travellers unfamiliar with locations and language.

Perfectly fine it is not at almost any time.

There's 2 train an hour ex-Sheffield arriving into P14, with 7 trains and hour from neighbouring P13 onwards to the airport. No need for stairs, walkways et al. It's probably one of the easier connections you could make at Piccadilly!

I can never find Victoria. I'm okay until I get the the Arndale Centre and then I always go the wrong way, without fail. It usually takes me a good twenty minutes to find from the Arndale. Having walked the long trek from Piccadilly to there in about 10 minutes.

Easiest (not necessarily quickest way) is to continue along the pedestrianised Market Street (keeping Arndale on your right hand side) until you emerge from the short covered section. Turn right (again keeping Arndale on your right) and then follow the tram tracks until you see the station entrance off to the left.

 

[Killingworth]

There's 2 train an hour ex-Sheffield arriving into P14, with 7 trains and hour from neighbouring P13 onwards to the airport. No need for stairs, walkways et al. It's probably one of the easier connections you could make at Piccadilly!

True, and that was the rationale for the 2022 changes. It's still not pleasant waiting on Platforms 13/14.

However the large drop in journeys between Sheffield and the Airport since 2019/20 runs counter to the increased numbers between Sheffield and both Manchester and Liverpool. Those increases against a reduction in total numbers using both Piccadilly and Sheffield, particularly Manchester.

That might need a new thread, but the evdence in support of through services generally is strong based on the negative trend from Sheffield to the Airport and positive trend to Liverpool.

 

[dosxuk]

The Airport is the one North West destination with very clear and obvious demonstrable demand from Sheffield, and that's 24/7 all year round.

Absolutely. All this talk of maybe swapping a Liverpool service to Blackpool to give people direct services completely ignores the one destination that Sheffielder's want back to being direct.

The idea posted above that we don't need direct trains to the airport because it's easy to change onto a Airport - Blackpool train can only have been posted in jest.

Unfortunately for the railway, the reduced numbers of passengers travelling to the airport is because people have switched to the car. It's now easier, quicker and more reliable to drive over the single carriageway roads that link Sheffield and Manchester than it is to use the train.

 

[A S Leib]

It might be better as a separate discussion, but how necessary would a Sheffield to Manchester Airport service be if Doncaster Sheffield reopens? I know that Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle have or have had, in Newcastle's case, Manchester Airport services despite having their own airports, although I think Manchester has a wider range of destinations than at least Newcastle and Glasgow.