Sheffield station why no ticket gates?

[infoman]

I know the trams have a big bearing on the situation,
but even if it was Manual checks for the peak periods.

 

[37038]

Unsure on lack of checks as I think I was only done once at the bottom of the stairs in the 2 years I lived there.

I think the choice of the local council have something to do with it. I know York CC rejected barriers and assume Sheffield could have done the same. May also have something to do with the unholy scrum that would occur at rush hours if ticket barriers were put in

 

[notlob.divad]

Where would you put them? The bridge is the crossing point used by the general public not just rail passengers. To leave access to the bridge but ticket the platforms you would have to have a barrier at the top or bottom of each set of stairs which would surely produce horrendous safety issues.

 

[PHILIPE]

There was a problem with blocking a public right of way but details sketchy in my mind now.

 

[YorkshireLad]

The last couple of weeks there have been Northern staff checking tickets but aside from that it doesn't happen that often.

 

[yorkie]

There will never be ticket gates at Sheffield (unless someone comes up with a spare few million quid).

• Sheffield ticket barriers plans rejected(2009)
• Protests against proposed ticket barriers at Sheffield railway station (2011)
• Sheffield - free bridge or not free bridge?? (2013)

 

[LowLevel]

EMT do a big block every now and then but it's a huge faff - they have to write to XC, Northern and TPE to get permission to block their passengers and it requires a huge number of inspectors and police officers to do it properly.

 

[talltim]

TO summarise. The bridge isn't a legal public right of way, but the rebuilding of it was partly paid for by the council to be public access across the station. There is a public right of way footbridge across the station at the south end, but it is gloomy, forbidding and more importantly isn't accessible.
It was in EMT's franchise contract to put in barriers. When they tried Sheffield Council refused planning permission, for what must be legal sound reasons, but mainly inspired by political ones. I'm not sure how that squares with EMTs contractual obligations, but they seem to have given up.
The other issue is that the tram stop is called Sheffield Station/Sheffield Hallam University. Its not that near the uni anyway, but without the direct access through the station its a long way away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The long-term solution is probably a second bridge, but whether that is worthwhile would depend on how much fare-dodging there actually is.

 

[LowLevel]

I would assume a massive amount of fare evasion personally given the number of local services stopping regularly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would assume a massive amount of fare evasion personally given the number of local services stopping regularly.

Most of those services are 2-car DMUs where the guard can check tickets, though?

 

[Haydn1971]

I'd imagine the arrival of longer MML trains and preparation for HS2 will trigger a renewed opportunity to provide a second means of access across the station, perhaps even a wider access hall above the platforms.


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[northwichcat]

Perhaps the question should be why should Sheffield get ticket gates? Ticket gates only really work well if most people need to insert tickets in to gates at both the beginning and end of journeys so they work well on London Underground but no so well at most National Rail stations, especially those with a lot of Intercity services where a ticket gate cannot prevent a passenger with an Advance ticket boarding the wrong train, unlike manual checks can.

If Virgin did a better job of on-board ticket checks there probably wouldn't be any need for gates at a lot of WCML stations.

 

[sheff1]

I would assume a massive amount of fare evasion personally given the number of local services stopping regularly.

Most of those services are 2-car DMUs where the guard can check tickets, though?

Most of the stations served by the local services are unstaffed. Many of them have no TVMs either. Some guards come through frequently and collect virtually all fares due, others might come through once or twice or not at all. I doubt whether any of the people who still do not hold a ticket when reaching Sheffield go to the booking office on arrival to purchase one.

 

[northwichcat]

Most of the stations served by the local services are unstaffed. Many of them have no TVMs either. Some guards come through frequently and collect virtually all fares due, others might come through once or twice or not at all. I doubt whether any of the people who still do not hold a ticket when reaching Sheffield go to the booking office on arrival to purchase one.

If that's the problem why is the solution to install ticket gates? Wouldn't the solution be to install TVMs at all stations?

 

[Gemz91]

Maybe everyone in South Yorkshire is just really honest, so don't need their tickets checking as they'll pay anyway?

 

[johnnychips]

If that's the problem why is the solution to install ticket gates? Wouldn't the solution be to install TVMs at all stations?

This introduces the difficulty that if the TVMs are credit card only, the passenger is not obliged to use them, and I read on a thread somewhere that some machines that used to accept cash were being withdrawn because of theft. It would be very difficult to install barriers at Sheffield; the guards don't have much time to issue tickets because of frequent stops. Conductors in addition to guards on some trains? This isn't an easy problem to solve.

 

[northwichcat]

This introduces the difficulty that if the TVMs are credit card only, the passenger is not obliged to use them, and I read on a thread somewhere that some machines that used to accept cash were being withdrawn because of theft. It would be very difficult to install barriers at Sheffield; the guards don't have much time to issue tickets because of frequent stops. Conductors in addition to guards on some trains? This isn't an easy problem to solve.

Old Northern only installed cash+card machines at stations which were staffed most of the day. At a station like Northwich which has no staff between 14:30 on Saturday and 06:30 on Monday where the machine could sell a considerable number of £10.80 returns to Manchester and £9 returns to Chester I can see the logic in that as hundreds of pounds could be inserted in to the machine in the unstaffed period. However, at the lesser used stations in PTE areas there shouldn't be as much of an issue as the revenue taken would be lower and it should be easier for security staff to collect the revenue more easily.

 

[dosxuk]

Maybe everyone in South Yorkshire is just really honest, so don't need their tickets checking as they'll pay anyway?

Considering the number of people having discussions on the platforms at Meadowhall whenever they do a block there, I don't think that's the case!

I've seen an entire family of 4 decide to go to the toilet at once on a 142 between Meadowhall and Sheffield, was quite a sight when they came out on arrival at Sheffield to find the guard standing beside the toilet door.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Considering the number of people having discussions on the platforms at Meadowhall whenever they do a block there, I don't think that's the case!

I've seen an entire family of 4 decide to go to the toilet at once on a 142 between Meadowhall and Sheffield, was quite a sight when they came out on arrival at Sheffield to find the guard standing beside the toilet door.

Good lord, how do you get 4 people in a 142 bog?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This introduces the difficulty that if the TVMs are credit card only, the passenger is not obliged to use them, and I read on a thread somewhere that some machines that used to accept cash were being withdrawn because of theft. It would be very difficult to install barriers at Sheffield; the guards don't have much time to issue tickets because of frequent stops. Conductors in addition to guards on some trains? This isn't an easy problem to solve.

To me, you're only not obliged to use them if you wish to pay cash and have sufficient cash on you for the fare. Turn up at a barrier with a card having walked past one and I'd imagine you'll at least end up with a classic Northern "penalty fake" relieving you of 80 quid.

 

[northwichcat]

To me, you're only not obliged to use them if you wish to pay cash and have sufficient cash on you for the fare. Turn up at a barrier with a card having walked past one and I'd imagine you'll at least end up with a classic Northern "penalty fake" relieving you of 80 quid.

I don't know if it's changed but the Northern Parkeon machines used to refuse to accept Post Office Mastercard Credit Cards. No problem if you were using it for TOD but if you wanted to pay for tickets it refused them every time. Northern, however, said the machines should accept them and it was the bank's fault if they didn't.

Good lord, how do you get 4 people in a 142 bog?!

I imagine someone from Guinness World Records was standing close by.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

There was a problem with blocking a public right of way but details sketchy in my mind now.

iirc there is a public footpath which runs across the station over the main footbridge so each platform , which isn;t sufficiently large to do it properly would require it's own gateline ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This introduces the difficulty that if the TVMs are credit card only, the passenger is not obliged to use them, and I read on a thread somewhere that some machines that used to accept cash were being withdrawn because of theft. It would be very difficult to install barriers at Sheffield; the guards don't have much time to issue tickets because of frequent stops. Conductors in addition to guards on some trains? This isn't an easy problem to solve.

never seen a 'credit cad only' TVM ... seen plenty that are card only and if it's a fixed site there;s no reason by they shouldn't take 'online' debit cards ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know if it's changed but the Northern Parkeon machines used to refuse to accept Post Office Mastercard Credit Cards. No problem if you were using it for TOD but if you wanted to pay for tickets it refused them every time. Northern, however, said the machines should accept them and it was the bank's fault if they didn't.

Interesting, I've had a similar problem with a Co-op Bank credit card in Switzerland in (specifically) SIX Card Services terminals. Annoyingly these are used on SBB TVMs, and SBB does not have the concession that the UK has with regard to penalty fares on regional services and methods of payment - these are absolute compulsory ticket services, and as such I guess if the TVM is broken the station is closed. (Metrolink is almost as absolute - if the TVM is broken each passenger must telephone customer services and report the matter, receiving an individual reference number which entitles travel - a big advantage of that is that broken TVMs will be quickly reported).

What was the problem? Was it indeed the bank's fault?

FWIW, though, if the passenger had such a card they did not have a valid method of payment for that TVM and as such should be able to pay at the first opportunity accepting it.

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting, I've had a similar problem with a Co-op Bank credit card abroad.

What was the problem? Was it indeed the bank's fault?

FWIW, though, if the passenger had such a card they did not have a valid method of payment for that TVM and as such should be able to pay at the first opportunity accepting it.

The bank didn't think it was their fault and Northern Parkeon TVMs were the only place that refused them - I had no problem using the same card in Canada but couldn't use it at the TVM at my local station! I don't still have one so don't know if they work now.

 

[brompton rail]

iirc there is a public footpath which runs across the station over the main footbridge so each platform , which isn;t sufficiently large to do it properly would require it's own gateline ....

The public right of way footbridge is further south than the station bridge. It is accessible only by steps on the city side and is scruffy, unpleasant and would certainly be perceived as being dangerous in the health and safety sense by many of those wishing to cross from Park Hill to Pond Street and the city centre.

Remember the tram stop generates a considerable number of journeys. Some tram passengers may wish to access the Hallam University, the bus station (for both, this tram stop is the nearest) as well as wishing to obtain or collect train tickets. The station Travel Centre is on the far (city) side of the station bridge to the tram stop. Ticket machines at the tram stop entrance are limited in the destinations they offer and space is very constrained.

Placing barriers on the station bridge and/or on the platforms are impractical because this would result in the dangerous situation where passengers have to queue on a staircase.

East Midlands Trains don't really have difficulty in checking tickets on their trains.
Chesterfield passengers can be checked at that station, those from further south should have been checked on leaving Derby anyway. Previous calling point on Liverpool services is 40+ minutes away at Stockport.

Trans Pennine Express have a problem with Meadowhall. Northern are the main operator with a problem, however the do not operate Sheffield Midland station, EMT do. On train checks on Northern trains can be challenging as some a heavily loaded and the only stations into Sheffield with ticket offices (none with barriers) are Doncaster, Mexborough, Swinton, Wakefield Westgate, Barnsley and Rotherham Central, all the rest are unstaffed without TVMs at present.

CrossCountry have a journey time of over 20 minutes from their previous calling point (Wakefield, Doncaster, Derby - see Chesterfield comment above)

Therefore regular blitzes at Meadowhall and Sheffield are the only practical solution.

 

[Mugby]

Quite apart from everything that's been said, it's just nice to know that there's one station (at least) which simply defeats all the proponents of barrier installation!

 

[Busaholic]

Good lord, how do you get 4 people in a 142 bog?!

Easier to get out of Pentonville Prison, I'd have thought.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I was at Meadowhall yesterday, same problem as with Sheffield, the big goons Northern hires harass innocent Supertram people as they were blocking part of the suspension bridge. I had my ticket, but I don't see why I should be forced to put up with the breach of privacy, for all they know I could of wanted to get a paper before changing trains.

 

[JIMMY8008]

The thing about Sheffield Council is they have an impressive record of screwing almost every thing up. I really do think before long maybe 3 to 5 years ticket barriers will appear in Sheffield but will be a total nightmare because of the reasons mentioned above.

Also anybody who uses that bridge to the south of the station needs a medal if they make it across in the dark! I have never seen a place like it before it really needs dismantling and sooner rather than later.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

EMT do a big block every now and then but it's a huge faff - they have to write to XC, Northern and TPE to get permission to block their passengers and it requires a huge number of inspectors and police officers to do it properly.

I can only wonder about the relationships between the local mangers concerned. Complete blocks happen at Manchester Piccadilly quite regularly with the full co-operation of all TOCs. I gather these blocks typically generate £10,000 or so additional revenue per day.

Perhaps the question should be why should Sheffield get ticket gates? Ticket gates only really work well if most people need to insert tickets in to gates at both the beginning and end of journeys so they work well on London Underground but no so well at most National Rail stations, especially those with a lot of Intercity services where a ticket gate cannot prevent a passenger with an Advance ticket boarding the wrong train, unlike manual checks can.

If Virgin did a better job of on-board ticket checks there probably wouldn't be any need for gates at a lot of WCML stations.

The best deterrent to fare evasion is to keep potential evaders off the trains in the first place. Clearly it will never be viable to barrier all stations. But by installing them at as many "significant" stations as possible a degree of deterrence is provided at one end or other of a large proportion of potential journeys.

Note also that at Wigan North Western both Northern and Virgin occasionally operate revenue blocks. Again these can be quite lucrative given that checks on board Virgin services between Preston and Wigan are very rare due to TMs nearly always changing at Preston, and the chancers know it!

I was at Meadowhall yesterday, same problem as with Sheffield, the big goons Northern hires harass innocent Supertram people as they were blocking part of the suspension bridge. I had my ticket, but I don't see why I should be forced to put up with the breach of privacy, for all they know I could of wanted to get a paper before changing trains.

With respect as soon as you enter private property you give up a certain right to privacy, certainly when you consider by-laws and ticketing. Meadowhall Shopping Centre is private property as is Meadowhall Interchange so you can be sure the bridge linking the two is also private property. I sympathise with you regarding the customer service skills of some of the ticket checkers but I think you will find they are perfectly entitled to do their jobs. The real issue is that ticket checks don't happen often enough so when they do people consider them an unnecessary nuisance.