Given there is a sizeable demand already between Cardiff and Bristol (and likely to increase), and a shortage of capacity between Cardiff and Swansea at peak times (1xGWR IET), should GWR extend peak services to Swansea and use HST's/IET's/5-6 car Turbos?
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Should GWR run peak time Swansea-Bristol-Taunton services?
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elliotjelliot
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I think there would be definitely be demand between Swansea and Bristol TM. Would these services beyond Cardiff call at more stations or the existing stops served by GWR?
I also expect in practical terms there would capacity concerns. I know TfW applied to run an Open Access service between Swansea and Bristol. They then pulled it for reasons not known to me.
Yes, Swansea-Bristol probably warrants a direct service, but how do you provide it? Could you quantify the overcrowding issue? Can't quickly find anything online.
During the peak hours there is usually overcrowding between Cardiff and Bristol (mostly heading to Bristol and back again in the PM). Also many commuters west of Cardiff have to travel to Cardiff/Newport/Bristol Parkway and have to the change to get to BTM.
I'd estimate that there is potentially a lot of traffic from stations west of Cardiff that would like a direct service to to BTM for commuting. Most likely way of doing this is an extension of Cardiff - Portsmouth/Taunton to Swansea.
anthony263
Established Member
They did but have changed there minds. There was talk of increasing the swansea to Cardiff swsnline service to hourly and extended to Bristol tm using emus when it was still planned to electrify to Swansea
Tomos y Tanc
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The poor connections between south Wales and the opposite side of the Severn sea (as we on the northen shore call it) are shocking. Our side and the Bristol Channel people should be kicking off about it!
Grecian 1998
Member
AIUI HSTs can't run between Southampton and Portsmouth. I think it's due to gauge clearance, the fact that GWR don't have enough HSTs with short swing link (SSL) bogies, as LSL bogies can't run over third rail, or possibly both. 5 car Turbos are the maximum possible on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services, so 6 car Turbos aren't happening.
The recent changes are a definite improvement however. 4-carriage HSTs on most Cardiff-Taunton services and 5-carriage Turbos on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services. Granted the latter have 2+3 seating and the air con on 166s is pathetically inadequate in the summer, although the air cooling on the 165s seems fine when I've been on one, so the stopping service is more comfortable. The one time I've used an HST in the evening peak from Bristol to Cardiff (1721) there were free seats leaving Temple Meads and free double seats leaving Filton Abbey Wood.
It would be nice to have a Bristol-Swansea service but if you target using the hourly IET for the Swansea end of the journey, the time and capacity for a journey aren't too bad even if they could certainly be better.
The recent changes are a definite improvement however. 4-carriage HSTs on most Cardiff-Taunton services and 5-carriage Turbos on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services. Granted the latter have 2+3 seating and the air con on 166s is pathetically inadequate in the summer, although the air cooling on the 165s seems fine when I've been on one, so the stopping service is more comfortable. The one time I've used an HST in the evening peak from Bristol to Cardiff (1721) there were free seats leaving Temple Meads and free double seats leaving Filton Abbey Wood.
It would be nice to have a Bristol-Swansea service but if you target using the hourly IET for the Swansea end of the journey, the time and capacity for a journey aren't too bad even if they could certainly be better.
greatvoyager
Established Member
This service would be very useful for many commuters. Swansea to Cardiff could use more trains.
Could Swansea to Cardiff accommodate more trains and still allow intermediate stops at the smaller stations? There is already a half hourly GWR service in the morning peak between Swansea and Cardiff between 0459 and 0829 and very few calls at the small stations.
In the westbound direction, there is the problem just after 5pm but then a frequent later peak service.
greatvoyager
Established Member
I believe there is space for an additional train an hour during the peak. They'd have to time it so that the express leaves first and then it follows soon after, so that the express ahead pulls away, and the express behind doesn't catch up to it.
Would the additional revenue for extending the Bristol-Cardiffs cover the additional costs? If so you would have thought GWR would already be doing it. If not would DfT be prepared to subsidise services in Wales and would TfW (authority) be happy that 'their' operator was losing a share of the revenue, even if from a wider non-political transport perspective it was the right thing to do? Arguably with GWR becoming a more dominant operator on the route between Cardiff and Swansea they should set the fare (which wouldn't go down well politically either).
Would it have to be an all day service? Could the current peak over-crowding be mitigated by longer TfW trains, or GWR extending a London service hitting Cardiff at peak times? Or Xc extending a Nottingham?
If there was a real need for more services between Swansea and Cardiff, and the pathing capacity for them in a mixed traffic environment with a reasonable amount of freight, you would have expected TfW (authority) to have included that in their franchise specification.
Also Open Access Operator Grand Union are in the mix aswell, with their proposed Llanelli-London service, and given WG seem to be supporting them as being a 'Welsh' train to London, it wouldn't surprise me if that was a more politically acceptable vehicle for an OAO than TfW themselves.
Would it have to be an all day service? Could the current peak over-crowding be mitigated by longer TfW trains, or GWR extending a London service hitting Cardiff at peak times? Or Xc extending a Nottingham?
If there was a real need for more services between Swansea and Cardiff, and the pathing capacity for them in a mixed traffic environment with a reasonable amount of freight, you would have expected TfW (authority) to have included that in their franchise specification.
Also Open Access Operator Grand Union are in the mix aswell, with their proposed Llanelli-London service, and given WG seem to be supporting them as being a 'Welsh' train to London, it wouldn't surprise me if that was a more politically acceptable vehicle for an OAO than TfW themselves.
I’m sure they’ve ran football specials from Fratton to Bristol on Saturdays before with HSTs?
Yes. Via Botley, Eastleigh and Chandler's Ford. That route is of no use for regular Portsmouth-Cardiff services as it misses out Southampton.
tomwills98
Member
Didn't they also divert to Waterloo, or over third rail lines? If they did then surely they would have enough to form som short sets.
iantherev
Member
Not if the vehicles in question are in Scotland, Doncaster or gently mouldering in sidings at Ely.
Problem with GWR extending the 1515 Paddington to Cardiff on to Swansea (departing Cardiff around 1720) is that they then wouldn't have a train to run the 1756 to Paddington. The latter represents their own core market at peak time rather than running to Swansea. Likewise, if you only run peak time trains on from Taunton to Swansea, something has to go back to Bristol at those times and the Bristol trains are already busy so you couldn't just split the units.
Yes they would. Having arrived via Eastleigh. Class 43s cannot travel between St Denys and Fareham due to clearance issue over the Hamble viaduct. That's why they can't be used on Cardiff-Portsmouth services.
Western Sunset
Established Member
HSTs can run over Southern metals, providing they have short swing-link (SSL) bogies.
That doesn't mean they are cleared for all third-rail routes, it just means that you need to be careful about which Mark 3 carriages you select once you are otherwise cleared.
Western Sunset
Established Member
Is the bridge at Hamble the only reason HSTs can't traverse that route then? Class 442s (Mk3 bodyshells) regularly diverted that way, so is it something specific re-HST power cars which bar them?
43096
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Power car bogies, specifically the steps on them AIUI.
Western Sunset
Established Member
Thanks.
This is now about Southampton to Portsmouth via Netley which is a bit off topic.
Mark 4s have never run via the route so would be an unknown quantity. Conventional Mark 3s have not run on the Southern region so may have a greater proportion with Long Swing Link bodies.
Whichever way, I think the question is a theoretical one rather than anything that will actually trouble the train planners.
Western Sunset
Established Member
I know we're going off-topic talking about Portsmouth rather than Taunton, but I feel that the Brighton - Portsmouth - Southampton - Salisbury - Bath - Bristol corridor has a greater need for capacity improvement rather than from Taunton. There are around 10 universities along the route and the cross-country roads are pretty dire.
If the Hamble bridge is all that is preventing the introduction of HSTs, why not improve it? Reminds me of the story about Churchward (or was it Collett) who found that just one weak bridge was preventing the introduction of heavier (and more powerful) locos over the Berks & Hants line. He argued that replacing it would have far-reaching improvements.
However, I digress.....
If the Hamble bridge is all that is preventing the introduction of HSTs, why not improve it? Reminds me of the story about Churchward (or was it Collett) who found that just one weak bridge was preventing the introduction of heavier (and more powerful) locos over the Berks & Hants line. He argued that replacing it would have far-reaching improvements.
However, I digress.....
Probably because no one wants to spend lots of money on replacing a bridge unless it is strictly necessary, and GWR doesn't want to use HSTs, IETs or anything like that on the route anyway - which is why it is using five-car Turbo formations on Cardiff-Portsmouth instead.
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