Should provision be made for a future rail link to Cardiff Airport?

[Envoy]

mods note - split from this thread

I see that the decision by the Vale of Glamorgan Council to refuse a business park on land north of the railway in the Porthkerry area is now going to an appeal. Should the Welsh Government allow this business park to be built, then they can kiss goodbye to any direct rail Metro link into Cardiff Airport from the VOG line. (The business park would occupy land own which such a link could be built in future). The extra road traffic generated would not be good news for the airport either.

"A decision on a Welsh council's handling of plans for a new business park on land that's been farmed by a family for generations will go to a public inquiry. Vale of Glamorgan Council's planning committee voted against approving Legal and General's plans for a new business park in Rhoose in March, 2023".

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/...ook-councils-handling-30668972?int_source=nba

 

[Tom125]

I see that the decision by the Vale of Glamorgan Council to refuse a business park on land north of the railway in the Porthkerry area is now going to an appeal. Should the Welsh Government allow this business park to be built, then they can kiss goodbye to any direct rail Metro link into Cardiff Airport from the VOG line. (The business park would occupy land own which such a link could be built in future). The extra road traffic generated would not be good news for the airport either.



https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/...ook-councils-handling-30668972?int_source=nba

Unless WG get a proper airline into Cardiff with multiple scheduled flights out of Cardiff every hour (like Bristol) then any future rail link is pointless. A line to the airport which just a few TUI passengers would use is a waste of time and money given most will drive to the airport anyway! I would say the extra road traffic would also have little effect on the airport area- whenever I’ve flown from Cardiff I’ve breezed straight through with zero traffic, parked the car and reached check in within 5-10 minutes.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Unless WG get a proper airline into Cardiff with multiple scheduled flights out of Cardiff every hour (like Bristol) then any future rail link is pointless. A line to the airport which just a few TUI passengers would use is a waste of time and money given most will drive to the airport anyway! I would say the extra road traffic would also have little effect on the airport area- whenever I’ve flown from Cardiff I’ve breezed straight through with zero traffic, parked the car and reached check in within 5-10 minutes.

That's the million dollar question, would adding a rail link into the airport would attract more airlines or not? I tend to think it would, but then maybe just a regular fast bus would be just as effective. Bristol does very well with buses & coaches and no rail connection.

CWL needs to find a big name operator and get Qatar back, to stand any chance of ever needing a dedicated railway station, and that doesn't seem to be happening currently. I'd start with a fast and cheap bus if I was doing the planning. An hourly train followed by a bus shuttle or a slow and infrequent bus are not going to do the job.

 

[Envoy]

Clearly, the way things are now does not justify a rail ink into Cardiff Airport from the coast line. If Cardiff Airport was anything like Bristol, then it certainly would. The point is that if a business park is built on that farmland around Porthkerry, then it blows the chances of having a rail link in the future and we just do not know how the future will pan out for the airport.

The Welsh Government spent a fortune on buses going between the airport and the city centre. They might have been more viable if they had been allowed to pick up locals for transport between Wenvoe and the city centre.

The best way forward now would be to get the FLIRT trains running a half hourly service on the VOG coast line allied with the 2 mile bus link from Rhoose station. They should also get on and build the planned new station at St.Athan to serve the growing local population.

With the half hourly modern train service, it would certainly help Spencer Birns in his efforts to attract new airlines to the airport. TfW are really dragging their feet in getting this planned half hourly service up and running on this line which also acts as a short cut between Barry and Bridgend - instead of going via Cardiff.

 

[Bob Price]

Bristol is doing well despite not having a rail link. Cardiff needs a reliable carrier based there but also needs express coach links from Swansea, Bridgend station, and Cardiff itself.

 

[Tom125]

Clearly, the way things are now does not justify a rail ink into Cardiff Airport from the coast line. If Cardiff Airport was anything like Bristol, then it certainly would. The point is that if a business park is built on that farmland around Porthkerry, then it blows the chances of having a rail link in the future and we just do not know how the future will pan out for the airport.

The Welsh Government spent a fortune on buses going between the airport and the city centre. They might have been more viable if they had been allowed to pick up locals for transport between Wenvoe and the city centre.

The best way forward now would be to get the FLIRT trains running a half hourly service on the VOG coast line allied with the 2 mile bus link from Rhoose station. They should also get on and build the planned new station at St.Athan to serve the growing local population.

With the half hourly modern train service, it would certainly help Spencer Birns in his efforts to attract new airlines to the airport. TfW are really dragging their feet in getting this planned half hourly service up and running on this line which also acts as a short cut between Barry and Bridgend - instead of going via Cardiff.

I thought TfW (in the future) were increasing to half hourly in the peak but remaining hourly off peak? Or is that scrapped.

 

[Smwrff]

The problem with that is peak rail hours don't match peak airline hours....

 

[John R]

Bear in mind that if Cardiff is to be like Bristol and have airlines use it as a base (which is what would be needed to drive sensible passenger volumes) then the busiest departure time is between 6am and 8am, as the airlines all need to get those expensive assets/leased planes flying asap. Which means a large proportion of passengers arriving from 3.30am to 6.30am.

If you think a rail/bus link can meet that demand then great, but the reality is that other factors will be more important in driving passenger growth.

 

[The Planner]

That's the million dollar question, would adding a rail link into the airport would attract more airlines or not? I tend to think it would, but then maybe just a regular fast bus would be just as effective. Bristol does very well with buses & coaches and no rail connection.

CWL needs to find a big name operator and get Qatar back, to stand any chance of ever needing a dedicated railway station, and that doesn't seem to be happening currently. I'd start with a fast and cheap bus if I was doing the planning. An hourly train followed by a bus shuttle or a slow and infrequent bus are not going to do the job.

Glasgow seems to do ok as well.

 

[JonathanH]

I recall First Great Western consulting on extending all the Portsmouth to Cardiff Central trains on to Rhoose in their 2006 timetable consultation. Nothing ever came of it.

 

[Cdiff]

The business park may work out well for the airport especially if businesses in the aviation sector set up their.

There’s is always the option for a tram to the airport if it ever gets busy enough, down the A4050, over Culver roundabout onto the A48 and then towards the city centre, but again that all depends on if they can get the passenger and airlines. Maybe the Welsh Government might think about setting up their own airline ‘AirWales’

 

[dk1]

I very much doubt it. Cardiff Airport really is rather a strange beast. It always seems to be in the doldrums and in the shadows of its far more successful rival in Bristol which has well over ten times the passenger numbers. Looks like last year Rhoose couldn’t even top one million compared to 9.8m across the channel. That’s certainly not enough to warrant a dedicated rail link.

 

[Western 52]

Do many people use the existing bus link to/from Roose Station?

 

[Caaardiff]

The Welsh Government spent a fortune on buses going between the airport and the city centre. They might have been more viable if they had been allowed to pick up locals for transport between Wenvoe and the city centre.

The bus was provided prior to Covid, when Qatar and Flybe were flying from Cardiff. Passenger numbers were about 1.6m, double what they are now. And the bus was still very much under utilised. Until numbers top 2m passengers per year, a bus service like this would need to be heavily subsidised.
Flybe probably generate most of the passenger traffic for that bus because of the route network it provided. Not that many people flying on holiday with TUI etc will want to catch a bus, unless it's a direct coach.

Cardiff Bus used to operate a Cardiff - Llantwit Major express service calling at the Airport. It couldn't have been sustainable as it was pulled.

The best way forward now would be to get the FLIRT trains running a half hourly service on the VOG coast line allied with the 2 mile bus link from Rhoose station. They should also get on and build the planned new station at St.Athan to serve the growing local population.

This is what needs to happen, with better connections from the West at Bridgend. No infrastructure changes would be needed that aren't already planned and as you say, there's already plans to increase the VOG service.
The bus connection is perfectly adequate under the current requirements of flights and passenger numbers.

With the half hourly modern train service, it would certainly help Spencer Birns in his efforts to attract new airlines to the airport. TfW are really dragging their feet in getting this planned half hourly service up and running on this line which also acts as a short cut between Barry and Bridgend - instead of going via Cardiff.

Airlines don't start routes because of transport links. People will find their way to an Airport. Airlines wants proof of catchment area and sufficient passenger numbers. Bristol is a perfect example of that. No rail link, no motorway link, congested roads. Just a regular bus service. Currently catering for 10m passenger journeys.

The business park may work out well for the airport especially if businesses in the aviation sector set up their.

There’s is always the option for a tram to the airport if it ever gets busy enough, down the A4050, over Culver roundabout onto the A48 and then towards the city centre, but again that all depends on if they can get the passenger and airlines. Maybe the Welsh Government might think about setting up their own airline ‘AirWales’

Why? There's already a perfectly good rail link going right past the Airport.



A rail spur from the current line would be an expensive option that wouldn't generate much return benefit. The bus connection is perfectly adequate and only adds on about 10-15 mins to the journey time.
If you look at rail access from South Wales, you cannot reach any UK airport without changing trains or onto a bus connection.

BRS: Change at Temple Meads to a 25 min bus ride
BHX: Change at Cardiff Central (If from West of Cardiff), then change again at New St then get the Monorail from Birmingham Intl into the Airport
MAN: Change at Wilmslow or Piccadilly.
LHR: Change at Reading or Paddington
LGW: Change at Reading

What is needed is a link from West Wales to Rhoose and a better quality bus ride from Rhoose - Airport.
There would need to be significant rise in passenger numbers for anything else to be justified.

 

[fishwomp]

Cardiff is just not a successful airport. We had a thread on this connection idea about 6 months back, and the numbers looked terrible.

Since then, proposals have been made by the Welsh govt to spend £200m over 10 years on it (https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiff-airport-bosses-grilled-over-29965190) .. it isn't paying it's own way and a physical rail connection won't fix this.

A justification for the spend quoted is "ministers are very clear that Wales needs to have an international airport".. it's quite a poor reason.

Perhaps they could spend the money on a western approach to Heathrow, because a badly served Cardiff airport will never have the connections and value that Heathrow has to South Wales - nor Manchester to North Wales, and Birmingham to mid-wales.. Wales population size and distribution just can't support the scale needed to be useful..

 

[Topological]

Cardiff is just not a successful airport. We had a thread on this connection idea about 6 months back, and the numbers looked terrible.

Since then, proposals have been made by the Welsh govt to spend £200m over 10 years on it (https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiff-airport-bosses-grilled-over-29965190) .. it isn't paying it's own way and a physical rail connection won't fix this.

A justification for the spend quoted is "ministers are very clear that Wales needs to have an international airport".. it's quite a poor reason.

Perhaps they could spend the money on a western approach to Heathrow, because a badly served Cardiff airport will never have the connections and value that Heathrow has to South Wales - nor Manchester to North Wales, and Birmingham to mid-wales.. Wales population size and distribution just can't support the scale needed to be useful..

This

IF the Welsh government want connectivity then being able to get to a major international airport easily should be a priority. It may even be possible to get a sub 2-hour train into Heathrow from Cardiff. That would only be an hour slower than a bus to Cardiff Airport.

They should have co-operated with Bristol on a Filton Airfield solution, but that one has gone. Bristol is sub-optimal and Cardiff is lost.

The only indicator that suggests Cardiff has hope is that flights with KLM are regularly more expensive starting in Cardiff than any of the other airports that might make sense from South Wales (including Bristol and Heathrow). That may imply that there is a willingness to pay for international connections. However, the KLM service is only a small plane and they haven't been tempted to put anything bigger on the route.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks for all the further comments.

Filton would have been ideal for an airport serving SW England & S Wales but they went and built Cribbs Causeway shopping area and Bradley Stoke on the surrounding land.

The Welsh Government just did not get it that Cardiff Airport at Rhoose was isolated from the main lines of transport with sea to the south. When Llanwern steelworks closed, they should have nabbed that land for a new airport which would have seen Cardiff & Bristol airports close. Llanwern would have had a mainline rail station half way between Cardiff & Bristol with excellent links to the wider area. With a new M4 south of Newport it would have been a clear winner.

Mention has been made of running direct trains into Heathrow but surely, it would make more sense to just have London trains stop at Hayes & Harlington where people could take the Elizabeth line into Heathrow in 6 minutes. Of course, it remains to be seen what happens when Old Oak Common opens? If the London trains have to stop at OOC, then that will be the place where people will transfer for trains to/from Heathrow and the Reading bus link will be dead. Nobody from west of Reading is going to take a train to OOC in order to take a bullet train to Birmingham as they will just go direct from Cardiff. Bristol etc.

They really need to promote the fact that Bridgend is the interchange station for west Walians to change trains for Cardiff Airport and indeed Barry rather than go into Cardiff. However, they really can’t do this until they get that vital half hourly service up and running - something that they should be doing now as enough trains are available with the introduction of the 756’s in the central valleys thus freeing up 150’s. Of course, ideally, we should have the FLIRT trains on the VOG coast line.

PS. It would also help Cardiff Airport if the fastest road route to/from the west were signposted rather than just directing everything via congested Culverhouse Cross.

 

[Western 52]

Does the Vale of Glamorgan line have enough capacity to have 2 trains per hour and to handle main line diversions at the same time? Some of the signal sections seem quite long, and its 50mph most of the way.

 

[Envoy]

Does the Vale of Glamorgan line have enough capacity to have 2 trains per hour and to handle main line diversions at the same time? Some of the signal sections seem quite long, and its 50mph most of the way.

If the line has to be used for main line diversions, they usually remove the local service and get the mainline trains to *stop at Llantwit Major and Rhoose - *but not the GWR.

 

[Topological]

Many thanks for all the further comments.

Filton would have been ideal for an airport serving SW England & S Wales but they went and built Cribbs Causeway shopping area and Bradley Stoke on the surrounding land.

The Welsh Government just did not get it that Cardiff Airport at Rhoose was isolated from the main lines of transport with sea to the south. When Llanwern steelworks closed, they should have nabbed that land for a new airport which would have seen Cardiff & Bristol airports close. Llanwern would have had a mainline rail station half way between Cardiff & Bristol with excellent links to the wider area. With a new M4 south of Newport it would have been a clear winner.

Mention has been made of running direct trains into Heathrow but surely, it would make more sense to just have London trains stop at Hayes & Harlington where people could take the Elizabeth line into Heathrow in 6 minutes. Of course, it remains to be seen what happens when Old Oak Common opens? If the London trains have to stop at OOC, then that will be the place where people will transfer for trains to/from Heathrow and the Reading bus link will be dead. Nobody from west of Reading is going to take a train to OOC in order to take a bullet train to Birmingham as they will just go direct from Cardiff. Bristol etc.

They really need to promote the fact that Bridgend is the interchange station for west Walians to change trains for Cardiff Airport and indeed Barry rather than go into Cardiff. However, they really can’t do this until they get that vital half hourly service up and running - something that they should be doing now as enough trains are available with the introduction of the 756’s in the central valleys thus freeing up 150’s. Of course, ideally, we should have the FLIRT trains on the VOG coast line.

PS. It would also help Cardiff Airport if the fastest road route to/from the west were signposted rather than just directing everything via congested Culverhouse Cross.

We should probably not forget that the Welsh think the M4 at Newport is adequate.

My logic on the direct train from Heathrow is that after you have flown people in from head office, saying take a train and connect is not ideal. The OOC option with Heathrow Express will be better, but Wales would do well to have a direct link. In the old days it might not have mattered as companies could just pay for cars to transport people around, but these days there is a positive signal from saying staff use public transport. Investment in Wales would be more competitive if Wales was connected in a more seamless way.

IF the aim was really to promote Cardiff Airport more then the VoG would need its signalling sorting to allow a frequent service (as you identify allowing those of us in the West to feel confident changing at Bridgend. My point about direct trains would suggest a service continuing to Swansea and Carmarthen (at least), but that needs a better junction at Bridgend so that both platforms can be used. A terminal to Rhoose bus is OK if there is a train every 15 minutes (or better) at the other end of it. The works to enable a better service also mean fixing the junctions at Cardiff Central accordingly.

Although this is a rail forum, a better road to Cardiff Airport is a must. It always makes me laugh as driving along the M4 near Swansea there are many signs telling drivers to stay on the M4 to go to Cardiff Airport as if it is some huge destination we need to go to. It makes you think that the M4 must actually take you to the airport. The M4 does go nicely to an airport, but that is Heathrow.

 

[Western Lord]

Cardiff Airport is a dead duck. Maybe they should cash in on the Gavin and Stacey connection and rename it Barry International.

 

[Topological]

Cardiff Airport is a dead duck. Maybe they should cash in on the Gavin and Stacey connection and rename it Barry International.

Does International mean flights to Southend (sorry London Southend)?

 

[Western 52]

Cardiff Airport is a dead duck. Maybe they should cash in on the Gavin and Stacey connection and rename it Barry International.

Or Barry Bados...

 

[Envoy]

We should probably not forget that the Welsh think the M4 at Newport is adequate.

The Welsh people don’t think the M4 at Newport is adequate - it is just our stupid rulers who don’t realise that good road transport is required as well as good railways.

IF the aim was really to promote Cardiff Airport more then the VoG would need its signalling sorting to allow a frequent service (as you identify allowing those of us in the West to feel confident changing at Bridgend. My point about direct trains would suggest a service continuing to Swansea and Carmarthen (at least), but that needs a better junction at Bridgend so that both platforms can be used. A terminal to Rhoose bus is OK if there is a train every 15 minutes (or better) at the other end of it. The works to enable a better service also mean fixing the junctions at Cardiff Central accordingly.

Yes, it would be a good idea to have direct trains from west Wales to the VOG coastline and people in the west would see Rhoose (Cardiff Airport) come up on the screens reminding them of such a direct service.

As things stand, the connections are not ideal with longish dwell times for the connections at Bridgend:> x08 train arrives from Pembroke Dock; x 40 train departs for Rhoose etc.; x54 Carmarthen to Paddington arrives at Bridgend. Going west and again, the situation is not that good at Bridgend:> x21 departure for Pembroke Dock; x37 train arrives from Rhoose etc.; x02 GWR express to Carmarthen departs. So, ideally, a 10 minute connection time would be desirable.

Although this is a rail forum, a better road to Cardiff Airport is a must. It always makes me laugh as driving along the M4 near Swansea there are many signs telling drivers to stay on the M4 to go to Cardiff Airport as if it is some huge destination we need to go to. It makes you think that the M4 must actually take you to the airport. The M4 does go nicely to an airport, but that is Heathrow.

Those signs on the M4 were put up when the motorway was built and at that time, Cardiff Airport was roughly level pegging with Bristol. Coming from the west, those signs should be changed to tell people to leave the M4 at J37 (Pyle) and take the A48 east to the new roundabout on the western end of the Cowbridge by-pass. Then along the B roads via Llandow to the Llantwit Major by-pass and along the coast road to enter the airport from the west. That would skim off the west Wales traffic from the more heavily congested roads coming in from the east via Culverhouse Cross. (Rhodri Morgan cancelled a planned expressway from near Culverhouse Cross to the Airport which would have skirted north Barry).

PS.If you go on Google Maps and put in for a road route from Port Talbot (and points west) to Cardiff Airport, it suggests the favoured route to be to M4 J34 (Miskin) and then through narrow lanes via Pendoylan to the A48 at Sycamore Cross. So, never rely on Google navigation!

 

[Topological]

The Welsh people don’t think the M4 at Newport is adequate - it is just our stupid rulers who don’t realise that good road transport is required as well as good railways.


Yes, it would be a good idea to have direct trains from west Wales to the VOG coastline and people in the west would see Rhoose (Cardiff Airport) come up on the screens reminding them of such a direct service.

As things stand, the connections are not ideal with longish dwell times for the connections at Bridgend:> x08 train arrives from Pembroke Dock; x 40 train departs for Rhoose etc.; x54 Carmarthen to Paddington arrives at Bridgend. Going west and again, the situation is not that good at Bridgend:> x21 departure for Pembroke Dock; x37 train arrives from Rhoose etc.; x02 GWR express to Carmarthen departs. So, ideally, a 10 minute connection time would be desirable.

Those signs on the M4 were put up when the motorway was built and at that time, Cardiff Airport was roughly level pegging with Bristol. Coming from the west, those signs should be changed to tell people to leave the M4 at J37 (Pyle) and take the A48 east to the new roundabout on the western end of the Cowbridge by-pass. Then along the B roads via Llandow to the Llantwit Major by-pass and along the coast road to enter the airport from the west. That would skim off the west Wales traffic from the more heavily congested roads coming in from the east via Culverhouse Cross. (Rhodri Morgan cancelled a planned expressway from near Culverhouse Cross to the Airport which would have skirted north Barry).

PS.If you go on Google Maps and put in for a road route from Port Talbot (and points west) to Cardiff Airport, it suggests the favoured route to be to M4 J34 (Miskin) and then through narrow lanes via Pendoylan to the A48 at Sycamore Cross. So, never rely on Google navigation!

Yes, sorry I forgot the word government. Though there does seem to be a habit of re-electing them so I cannot completely say that the electorate do not have any responsibility for the ongoing situation. (Not to turn this into a politics thread, many alternatives are available)

A decision needs to be made on what role Cardiff Airport plays and then the planning needs to be made accordingly. I would say get the M4 link built, ensure a better connection to Cardiff and improve the train offerings from Rhoose.

It is also possible to get a tram-train solution added after the full heavy rail is ruled out, but that may be overkill if Rhoose can be made to work.

Irrespective of the airport, work needs doing on Cardiff Central to allow more trains to arrive from Ninian Park and Barry.

We all know the answer is fix Swansea airport so that visitors can go straight to the Mumbles and around Gower without needing to encounter the M4 at all

 

[Western 52]

Swansea Airport would need a very big fix!

 

[Smwrff]

While I would love for Cardiff to up its game, I am virtually resigned to using LHR for international flights - in which case I would like to see the LHR Western Approach to be resurrected

 

[WAB]

Lots of bold assumptions about the demand there would be at Cardiff. Is there enough demand in South Wales for specific destinations which Bristol can't fulfil?

 

[Topological]

Lots of bold assumptions about the demand there would be at Cardiff. Is there enough demand in South Wales for specific destinations which Bristol can't fulfil?

Yes, in short. Much of it will be reduced currently by the cost of getting to Bristol/Heathrow.

I don't think many are saying there is the demand for a rail link to work, but certainly there would be enough demand for a better service than is available now. The problem is that it is a chicken and egg case. The airport cannot support numbers and the access for all modes is poor. IF the big planes returned (and there was only Qatar previously) then the infrastructure would struggle.

I suspect Ryanair type operations would do very well from Cardiff, but again there needs to be the will.

At the moment no airline will want to fly to Cardiff because the travel times shrink its market.

The better outcome would have been a joint Bristol/Cardiff airport as that could have easily supported 15m passengers.

 

[telstarbox]

Is it fair to say that South Wales isn't the most affluent UK area so that will limit demand anyway?