Should Thalys introduce TGV Duplex?

[Stephen Lee]

Just a question as I believe that the routes between Paris-Brussels-Koln/Amsterdam have high ridership(excluding the pandemic)?

 

[superalbs]

I think they'd be on to a winner by introducing proper capacity single-deck trains (ie, not TGV).

 

[Ianno87]

Is there any technical reason preventing Duplex operation on these routes?

e.g. the TGV services that serve Brussels are (I believe) entirely operated by Réseau sets.

 

[D6130]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the TGV-Reseau sets are the only ones with 3,000 v DC capability.

 

[Snow1964]

Is there any technical reason preventing Duplex operation on these routes?

e.g. the TGV services that serve Brussels are (I believe) entirely operated by Réseau sets.

Not aware of any technical reasons, I think it is more to do with ownership (different railways own different sets on paper), so harder to get Investment to replace whole fleet

There aren’t that many single deck TGVs left, most have been replaced by newer ones

The ones to Brussels (16 units) are 4510, 12-26
30 units were tri-voltage, 4501-6 have Italian signalling for Milan services, about 8 have been withdrawn, some don’t have Belgium signalling

Heard rumours that a refurbishment (Thales Ruby) starts this year,
There are 9 PBA (Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam) sets 4532-4540
17 PBKA (Koln = Cologne) 4301-7, 21, 22, 31, 32, 41-46

 

[gysev]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the TGV-Reseau sets are the only ones with 3,000 v DC capability.

Indeed, and don't forget the Belgian TBL and Dutch ATB signalling systems that would have to be installed and approved.

 

[popeter45]

If green speed actually happens I wonder if they should order velaro D's to make there combined fleet a bit more homogeneous with the e320's

 

[Ianno87]

Indeed, and don't forget the Belgian TBL and Dutch ATB signalling systems that would have to be installed and approved.

Plus HSL Zuid is ETCS Level 2 (I believe). Not sure how many TGVs generally are fitted with it?

If green speed actually happens I wonder if they should order velaro D's to make there combined fleet a bit more homogeneous with the e320's

Fleet replacement of the PBK/PBKA fleet can't be all that many years off, given they are ~25 years old now.

 

[popeter45]

Plus HSL Zuid is ETCS Level 2 (I believe). Not sure how many TGVs generally are fitted with it?

A few do such as the POS sets as Lgv-est uses ETCS L2
Also what's to stop just replacing the singles deck passenger cars on the pbka sets with duplex cars while still keeping the power cars?

 

[Ianno87]

A few do such as the POS sets as Lgv-est uses ETCS L2

Plus stuff that uses Sud-Europe Atlantique to Bordeaux.

 

[Snow1964]

A few do such as the POS sets as Lgv-est uses ETCS L2
Also what's to stop just replacing the singles deck passenger cars on the pbka sets with duplex cars while still keeping the power cars?

All the EuroDuplex sets have ERTMS (sets 801-897, 4701-4730)
listing in build order :
4701-15 are type 3UA (Paris-Frankfurt/Munich) built 2011
4716-30 are type 3UA Lyria (Paris- Geneva/Lausanne)
801-810 type 3UH (Hispanic, Spain) sets built 2013
811-825 type 3UF (France, not built with Spanish ASFA)
851-65, 867-91 type 3UFC (Capacitaire, extra seats, 550 seat) 2016-7
836-850 type 3UFC, might still be couple to be delivered
826-35 type 3UF on order 2021

I think 811-821 are getting Spanish equipment soon, to expand Ouigo services in Spain

19 sets were swapped 2005-2007, and the single deck reseau trailers were combined with new tri voltage duplex power cars, the duplex sets with reseau power cars are sets 601-19

 

[BananaRepublic]

If green speed actually happens I wonder if they should order velaro D's to make there combined fleet a bit more homogeneous with the e320's

The press statements talk about a unified fleet for the new combined company.
What that means, as far as train types go, hasn't been made clear.

 

[Aictos]

Fleet replacement of the PBK/PBKA fleet can't be all that many years off, given they are ~25 years old now.

Not entirely accurate, the PBK fleet is older then the PBKA fleet by 5 years as the former entered service in 1993, the latter entered service in 1998.

 

[43096]

Not entirely accurate, the PBK fleet is older then the PBKA fleet by 5 years as the former entered service in 1993, the latter entered service in 1998.

I think you mean PBA, not PBK.

 

[Ianno87]

Not entirely accurate, the PBK fleet is older then the PBKA fleet by 5 years as the former entered service in 1993, the latter entered service in 1998.

Did they have some non-Thalys use initially? Thalys itself only launched in 1996.

 

[43096]

Did they have some non-Thalys use initially? Thalys itself only launched in 1996.

The Thalys PBA sets were delivered from October 95 through to February 96.

The PBKA sets seem to have been delivered around 12 months later.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Thalys PBA sets were delivered from October 95 through to February 96.
The PBKA sets seem to have been delivered around 12 months later.

Older than some of the original class 373 sets then, and the later NoL sets, some of which have already been scrapped.

 

[Aictos]

The Thalys PBA sets were delivered from October 95 through to February 96.

The PBKA sets seem to have been delivered around 12 months later.

I know it's not the best of resources but Wikipedia seems to think that the PBKA sets were constructed between 1995 and 1998 then in service from 1998, I like to know for sure though.

I think you mean PBA, not PBK.

Yes sorry, sometimes I misspelt stuff without realising. Doh!

 

[duesselmartin]

Still might make sense for double deck Thalys in capacity grounds.
Could a Duplex run in Britain on HS1?

 

[popeter45]

Still might make sense for double deck Thalys in capacity grounds.
Could a Duplex run in Britain on HS1?

yes, its GC gauge so can fit TGV euroduplexes
also makes me wish Siemens made a velaro duplex

 

[AverageTD]

yes, its GC gauge so can fit TGV euroduplexes
also makes me wish Siemens made a velaro duplex

Off topic as we head into Eurostar territory but I, and I think many others prefer the space a single decker High Speed Train offers so I'm very pleased with the option that ES went for.

 

[Ianno87]

Off topic as we head into Eurostar territory but I, and I think many others prefer the space a single decker High Speed Train offers so I'm very pleased with the option that ES went for.

I suspect with double deckers the constraint becomes the size of the waiting areas at St Pancras, Gare du Nord, etc.

 

[Aictos]

Just a question as I believe that the routes between Paris-Brussels-Koln/Amsterdam have high ridership(excluding the pandemic)?

Seeing as pre Covid19, the markets that had the highest usage was the Paris to Brussels/Amsterdam routes I can see one day TGV Duplexes running on those routes with the single deck TGVs running on the Paris to Cologne/Dortmund routes.

Failing that, a new double decker TGV type for all services as a standard fleet as the type is fairly comfortable and offers more capacity then a single decker TGV.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suspect with double deckers the constraint becomes the size of the waiting areas at St Pancras, Gare du Nord, etc.

A better use for double-deck size stock on Euro* would be for an upper deck with seats, with each seat having the same space again on the lower deck for luggage and/or cheap European booze...

Oh, wait.

 

[cakefiend]

Honestly, I think now is the worst possible time for Thalys to introduce new stock. Facetious remarks aside, the Duplex format is considerably better in most respects than the original single-deck design, which is now outdated and cramped. The Duplex seats considerably more people, is better laid out, and makes better use of platform space allowing for more departures per hour and increased capacity where it's required.

Duplex has its faults, too - particularly accessibility. The fact that brand new trains are being built with a set of stairs up from the accessible seating to the bar is unforgiveable in my eyes. Another limitation is not everywhere Thalys runs to is likely to be gauge cleared (I may be wrong) for trains that size.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Honestly, I think now is the worst possible time for Thalys to introduce new stock. Facetious remarks aside, the Duplex format is considerably better in most respects than the original single-deck design, which is now outdated and cramped. The Duplex seats considerably more people, is better laid out, and makes better use of platform space allowing for more departures per hour and increased capacity where it's required.

Duplex has its faults, too - particularly accessibility. The fact that brand new trains are being built with a set of stairs up from the accessible seating to the bar is unforgiveable in my eyes. Another limitation is not everywhere Thalys runs to is likely to be gauge cleared (I may be wrong) for trains that size.

Sorry for off-topic I just wondered if the existing high speed trains including TGV Thalys ICE etc. will be used for TEE 2.0

 

[AlexNL]

I wouldn't count on Thalys buying new trains anytime soon - they are currently working on a major refurbishment project of their fleet under the project name "RubY" which includes a new interior. This should give the fleet a new lease of life lasting a couple of years.

Maybe by the time 2030 rolls around they'll start to introduce some new stock.

 

[Hey 3]

Sorry for off-topic I just wondered if the existing high speed trains including TGV Thalys ICE etc. will be used for TEE 2.0

TEE 2.0 will be operated by OBB(from Austria btw, in case you did not know) and will use the existing sets, plus the new build locomotive+ coaching sets and a DVT I think*. There is no chance that OBB would use double deck as is there little chance of Thalys operating Trans Europe Express 2.0
*=Note the new loco+coaching sets+DVT will not enter service till 2023.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

TEE 2.0 is simply an idea from the German government. You seem to be confusing it with OBB's Railjet and Nightjet services.

Germany calls for a new Trans Europe Express TEE 2.0 network

GERMANY’s transport minister Mr Andreas Scheuer presented proposals to EU transport ministers on September 21 to create a new Trans Europe Express (TEE) network.

www.railjournal.com