Shunting Enquiry

[Dixie]

A colleague in Austria has asked an interesting question. Apparently there when a light engine shunts across tracks, the loco displays white lights at both ends.

Am I correct in thinking that this doesn't happen in the UK, that the loco will always display white in the direction of travel and red at the other end?

Could someone confirm or otherwise explain what is the case in the UK more precisely, please?

 

[driver9000]

Traditionally it was 1 red and 1 white light when shunting but this isn't possible on locos and units now. It is permitted to make a shunt move less than 400 metres without changing lights over so it is possible to see a shunt move with whites on the back and reds to the front. Most Drivers will change lights over out of habit. The only time you would run with whites both ends is when travelling in the wrong direction to assist a failed train.

 

[ME/D432]

A colleague in Austria has asked an interesting question. Apparently there when a light engine shunts across tracks, the loco displays white lights at both ends.

Am I correct in thinking that this doesn't happen in the UK, that the loco will always display white in the direction of travel and red at the other end?

Could someone confirm or otherwise explain what is the case in the UK more precisely, please?

Yes white on the front and red on the rear in the UK

 

[Dixie]

Thanks both of you, much appreciated.

 

[heedfan]

Old class 08 shunting locomotives that are still in use generally have one white and one red light at each end. But I have only encountered these in a depot environment so whether any still shunt across mainlines I can't comment. It certainly used to happen with that arrangement of lights, but whether it still does, perhaps someone else can clarify!

 

[superjohn]

In Germany it is common to see trains shunting out of platforms with lights set as they were on arrival, even if that was in the other direction. I think this is common practice on the continent but shunting in general is much more common over there. Long distance arrivals will frequently shunt to a depot or sidings for preparation before the next journey whereas this tends to be done in the platform in the UK.

 

[Tony2]

Looks like one white and one red light lit in this photo of 09022 in 2018:

Boston Docks

09022 Seen working round the dock this afternoon. (All Pictures Taken With Permision)

www.flickr.com

 

[Fireless]

In Germany it is common to see trains shunting out of platforms with lights set as they were on arrival, even if that was in the other direction. I think this is common practice on the continent but shunting in general is much more common over there. Long distance arrivals will frequently shunt to a depot or sidings for preparation before the next journey whereas this tends to be done in the platform in the UK.

The DB has its own signal for shunting locos (signal Fz 1 in Ril. 301.1201) which is one white light (usually at buffer height) at each end of the locomotive but allows using signal Zg 1a (three white lights in "A"-shape) instead which must be used when going over level crossings without technical protection or with a temporary crossing keeper.

 

[Dixie]

Looks like one white and one red light lit in this photo of 09022 in 2018:

Boston Docks

09022 Seen working round the dock this afternoon. (All Pictures Taken With Permision)

www.flickr.com

Mmmm, wonder why that was?

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Old class 08 shunting locomotives that are still in use generally have one white and one red light at each end. But I have only encountered these in a depot environment so whether any still shunt across mainlines I can't comment. It certainly used to happen with that arrangement of lights, but whether it still does, perhaps someone else can clarify!

Not just 350s. Cromptons and EDs would show a red and a white blind in the route indicator.
Pat

 

[mainframe444]

Old class 08 shunting locomotives that are still in use generally have one white and one red light at each end. But I have only encountered these in a depot environment so whether any still shunt across mainlines I can't comment. It certainly used to happen with that arrangement of lights, but whether it still does, perhaps someone else can clarify!

The lights fitted to the 08s have a red filter fitted, which can be moved out of the way, so an 08 can show two whites or two reds at either end of the loco, or one of each, which should be shown while shunting, to make it clear the loco could move either way.

M

 

[O L Leigh]

I have seen DB Cl66s with marker and tail lights showing simultaneously on the same end, which I have presumed to be indicative of them carrying out shunting duties.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Looks like one white and one red light lit in this photo of 09022 in 2018:

Boston Docks

09022 Seen working round the dock this afternoon. (All Pictures Taken With Permision)

www.flickr.com

They are both as dim as a Toc-H lamp.

 

[philthetube]

Traditionally it was 1 red and 1 white light when shunting but this isn't possible on locos and units now. It is permitted to make a shunt move less than 400 metres without changing lights over so it is possible to see a shunt move with whites on the back and reds to the front. Most Drivers will change lights over out of habit. The only time you would run with whites both ends is when travelling in the wrong direction to assist a failed train.

Can modern stocks run with whites on the rear, modern underground stock can't

 

[driver9000]

Can modern stocks run with whites on the rear, modern underground stock can't

Yes they can.

 

[pompeyfan]

This 08 has had its marker lights converted to LED.

https://twitter.com/rail_photter/status/1290918930924670976?s=21

 

[43066]

The only time you would run with whites both ends is when travelling in the wrong direction to assist a failed train.

And the most common reason: the last driver forgot to change the lights over when keying off.

Cue a call from the signaller and the walk of shame.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I've seen Desiros in Clapham Yard showing red and white lights. I'm not sure if it was all three whites though.

 

[D6975]

Some 08s were fitted with rotating orange lights on the ends. These were to indicate remote control operation I believe.

 

[pompeyfan]

I've seen Desiros in Clapham Yard showing red and white lights. I'm not sure if it was all three whites though.

This is to indicate the unit has been prepped and is ready to enter service.

 

[Llama]

Traditionally it was 1 red and 1 white light when shunting but this isn't possible on locos and units now. It is permitted to make a shunt move less than 400 metres without changing lights over so it is possible to see a shunt move with whites on the back and reds to the front. Most Drivers will change lights over out of habit. The only time you would run with whites both ends is when travelling in the wrong direction to assist a failed train.

Surely that should be unsignalled wrong direction movement?

Shunt movements on running lines should normally display the correct end lighting irrespective of distance.

The old rule about movements being detained after being crossed over to a running line where the normal direction of travel was in the other direction having to display reds only on the front and no lights on the rear while detained during fog/falling snow/in a tunnel was the only exception to standard lighting rules when shunting on running lines IIRC. That rule disappeared about ten years ago now.

Shunt locos should display one red and one white if possible when performing shunt movements in sidings. The 350 shunt loco (09009) at Collyhurst Street sidings just east from Manchester Victoria can usually be seen doing so, its marker/tail lights are LEDs.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

And the most common reason: the last driver forgot to change the lights over when keying off.

Cue a call from the signaller and the walk of shame.

A few drivers do that down here. They change the marker light switch from auto to white and forget to change it and don't check when they change ends.
You don't even need to take it out of auto most of the time. The moment you take the master key out it reverts to red.

 

[TheEdge]

And the most common reason: the last driver forgot to change the lights over when keying off.

Cue a call from the signaller and the walk of shame.

The 755s and 745s default to automatically have whites on a cab with a key and reds on one without.

And you can remotely change the back ones from the TCMS