Sickness during Guards Probationary Period… now possible personal injury claim?

[samma]

Hi ,
I am 4mths into my training as a metro guard, literally just on my last bit of route learning and I had a freak accident on a train yesterday and damaged my knee pretty badly , suspected torn cruciate ligament , I am currently unable to walk or put any weight on my leg ,I am waiting MRI results to confirm. I am really worried I will lose my job if I am off for a long time as I am still in my probationary 6mths Has anyone else had to have time off or have any advice , thank you ☺️

 

[skyhigh]

Talk to your union rep ASAP.

 

[Horizon22]

Hi ,
I am 4mths into my training as a metro guard, literally just on my last bit of route learning and I had a freak accident on a train yesterday and damaged my knee pretty badly , suspected torn cruciate ligament , I am currently unable to walk or put any weight on my leg ,I am waiting MRI results to confirm. I am really worried I will lose my job if I am off for a long time as I am still in my probationary 6mths Has anyone else had to have time off or have any advice , thank you ☺️

Highly doubtful you will lose your job.

Firstly it's an injury at work and there's certain policies around that and would have an impact as opposed to say tearing your ligaments playing sport outside of work (as an example). The company will probably want to investigate what happened, take statements, CCTV etc and make sure there were no wider H&S concerns or negligence by either party.

Secondly - presuming you are in a union - speak to your local rep immediately about any concerns you may have.

Thirdly - the company have put a considerable amount of time training and putting money into you after employing you and if you are young you may have many productive years of service.

There are a few articles on the subject and whilst nobody here is qualified to give legal advice, speak to your union and you may find referring to these helpful - https://www.legalhelpline.co.uk/per...ork-accident-during-your-probationary-period/

 

[43OO4]

My experience with sickness at work, however, has been completely different. Even as part of a union, sustaining an injury at work, TOCs will seek to get rid of the weak pickings in new cohorts, even if it's not your doing. Hoping for the best for you.

 

[samma]

Highly doubtful you will lose your job.

Firstly it's an injury at work and there's certain policies around that and would have an impact as opposed to say tearing your ligaments playing sport outside of work (as an example). The company will probably want to investigate what happened, take statements, CCTV etc and make sure there were no wider H&S concerns or negligence by either party.

Secondly - presuming you are in a union - speak to your local rep immediately about any concerns you may have.

Thirdly - the company have put a considerable amount of time training and putting money into you after employing you and if you are young you may have many productive years of service.

There are a few articles on the subject and whilst nobody here is qualified to give legal advice, speak to your union and you may find referring to these helpful - https://www.legalhelpline.co.uk/per...ork-accident-during-your-probationary-period/

Thank you for your reply.
Unfortunately I haven't joined the union yet as still waiting to meet the rep at my depot
I am hoping the diagnosis won't be as bad as they suspect
I will read through the info you have sent , thank you ☺️

 

[Gloster]

Had you already contacted the union rep or other official to discuss joining the union when you had the accident?

 

[AverageJoe]

You can still speak to a union rep even if you are not a member and they will give advice and often still represent a non member.

If the injury occurred at work did you speak to your supervisor. You shouldn’t be penalised and I would imagine you would be entitled to sick pay.

 

[samma]

Had you already contacted the union rep or other official to discuss joining the union when you had the accident?

We were just told when we started that our union rep would catch up with us at the depot at some point

You can still speak to a union rep even if you are not a member and they will give advice and often still represent a non member.

If the injury occurred at work did you speak to your supervisor. You shouldn’t be penalised and I would imagine you would be entitled to sick pay.

Thank you ☺️
I have spoken to my guards manager and he's been really good , he's said not to worry too much at the moment but hr may take a different view if it's a long rehabilitation. The timing couldn't be worse

My experience with sickness at work, however, has been completely different. Even as part of a union, sustaining an injury at work, TOCs will seek to get rid of the weak pickings in new cohorts, even if it's not your doing. Hoping for the best for you.

Oh that's a bit of a worry ! Thank you for your good wishes ☺️

 

[43066]

Hi ,
I am 4mths into my training as a metro guard, literally just on my last bit of route learning and I had a freak accident on a train yesterday and damaged my knee pretty badly , suspected torn cruciate ligament , I am currently unable to walk or put any weight on my leg ,I am waiting MRI results to confirm. I am really worried I will lose my job if I am off for a long time as I am still in my probationary 6mths Has anyone else had to have time off or have any advice , thank you ☺️

Just contact the union rep and take it from there. Join immediately if necessary.

I certainly can’t see a TOC getting rid of someone through an injury at work - assuming you weren’t doing something really dangerous/negligent. There will need to be an investigation process to determine whether they were at fault!

If you’re unable to perform safety critical work due to your injury I would anticipate a spell of light duties until you can, and then another training course potentially.

NOTE: check your contract for what your sick pay entitlement is at this stage…

There are a few articles on the subject and whilst nobody here is qualified to give legal advice, speak to your union and you may find referring to these helpful - https://www.legalhelpline.co.uk/per...ork-accident-during-your-probationary-period/

I’d urge some caution with this site as it seems to be a personal injury “ambulance chaser” law firm, primarily concerned with claiming against the employer, rather than advising on employment law points per se.

Citizens Advice, an employment lawyer, or (most likely) the union are potentially a better starting point - which isn’t to say the OP shouldn’t consider making a PI claim against their employer, if appropriate .

 

[dctraindriver]

Do this right now.

https://join.rmt.org.uk/app/#/welcome

Don’t over worry, it’ll be ok.

But join right now.

 

[43OO4]

Do this right now.

https://join.rmt.org.uk/app/#/welcome

Don’t over worry, it’ll be ok.

But join right now.

Will RMT take on a matter that happens before joining, though? And from firsthand experience, there isn't much that RMT can actually do during the probation period - my TOC specified a very vague reason for getting rid of me during my probation, citing an "uncertainty" in when I'd be able to return to full duty as a reason. During probation, the company has any and every reason to bin someone off, even if the condition does result in being legally a 'disability' and thus receive protection under the equality act, there are unfortunately ways of avoiding specific wording to keep within the realms of employment law. I've been on the receiving end of it myself.

What happens will happen. Keep us posted.

 

[dctraindriver]

I can’t really comment on your circumstances but sorry that’s happened to you. From the experiences I’ve seen where I am they’ve been pretty supportive of people still in their probationary periods.

 

[43066]

Will RMT take on a matter that happens before joining, though?

In my experience yes - both unions are sympathetic to people joining and then asking for help regarding matters that happened beforehand.

And from firsthand experience, there isn't much that RMT can actually do during the probation period - my TOC specified a very vague reason for getting rid of me during my probation, citing an "uncertainty" in when I'd be able to return to full duty as a reason. During probation, the company has any and every reason to bin someone off, even if the condition does result in being legally a 'disability' and thus receive protection under the equality act, there are unfortunately ways of avoiding specific wording to keep within the realms of employment law. I've been on the receiving end of it myself.

What happens will happen. Keep us posted.

It may be worth a different thread but, with all due respect, there’s nowhere near enough information here to say whether your particular situation will be relevant to the OP’s position, and of course it will also come down to individual employers, managers etc. No two of these scenarios are ever identical!

 

[PupCuff]

I wouldn't be overly concerned about losing your job (unless you've already made a name for yourself for other reasons or previous sickness), but I'd suggest expecting your probation to be extended, and I'd also just note you may have very limited (likely no) entitlement to company sick pay.

In the very worst case scenario, and they were to dismiss you, as it was an accident at work there may be the option of making a personal injury claim. I wouldn't advise this course of action if they aren't planning to go down the dismissal route, for hopefully obvious reasons...

 

[samma]

Do this right now.

https://join.rmt.org.uk/app/#/welcome

Don’t over worry, it’ll be ok.

But join right now.

Thank you so much . I have joined now ☺️

Just contact the union rep and take it from there. Join immediately if necessary.

I certainly can’t see a TOC getting rid of someone through an injury at work - assuming you weren’t doing something really dangerous/negligent. There will need to be an investigation process to determine whether they were at fault!

If you’re unable to perform safety critical work due to your injury I would anticipate a spell of light duties until you can, and then another training course potentially.

NOTE: check your contract for what your sick pay entitlement is at this stage…



I’d urge some caution with this site as it seems to be a personal injury “ambulance chaser” law firm, primarily concerned with claiming against the employer, rather than advising on employment law points per se.

Citizens Advice, an employment lawyer, or (most likely) the union are potentially a better starting point - which isn’t to say the OP shouldn’t consider making a PI claim against their employer, if appropriate .

Thank you so much for your reply ☺️

I wouldn't be overly concerned about losing your job (unless you've already made a name for yourself for other reasons or previous sickness), but I'd suggest expecting your probation to be extended, and I'd also just note you may have very limited (likely no) entitlement to company sick pay.

In the very worst case scenario, and they were to dismiss you, as it was an accident at work there may be the option of making a personal injury claim. I wouldn't advise this course of action if they aren't planning to go down the dismissal route, for hopefully obvious reasons...

Thank you so much for your reply ☺️ I did see I won't be entitled to sick pay , obviously this isn't great but honestly I'm just more worried about keeping my job , especially as I am so close to finishing all my training, absolutely awful timing

Will RMT take on a matter that happens before joining, though? And from firsthand experience, there isn't much that RMT can actually do during the probation period - my TOC specified a very vague reason for getting rid of me during my probation, citing an "uncertainty" in when I'd be able to return to full duty as a reason. During probation, the company has any and every reason to bin someone off, even if the condition does result in being legally a 'disability' and thus receive protection under the equality act, there are unfortunately ways of avoiding specific wording to keep within the realms of employment law. I've been on the receiving end of it myself.

What happens will happen. Keep us posted.

Thank you for your reply . I'm really sorry that has happened to you and is exactly what I am fearing too

 

[scrapy]

The only way I could see you losing your job over this is if the accident was caused by you being overly neglegent and not following procedures. For example not wearing company issued safety shoes, or not following an authorised walking route. Even then would be unlikely imo

 

[samma]

The only way I could see you losing your job over this is if the accident was caused by you being overly neglegent and not following procedures. For example not wearing company issued safety shoes, or not following an authorised walking route. Even then would be unlikely imo

Thank you for your reply . Actually I wasn't wearing safety shoes but this is because although I ordered them through my depot manager months ago they have not been delivered, so I haven't been issued any yet. My depot manager is chasing it up so I am kind of hoping they won't pin that on me ☹️

 

[Horizon22]

Thank you for your reply . Actually I wasn't wearing safety shoes but this is because although I ordered them through my depot manager months ago they have not been delivered, so I haven't been issued any yet. My depot manager is chasing it up so I am kind of hoping they won't pin that on me ☹️

Just make sure you've got correspondence/paperwork regarding this as they might try to pin this on you; however if you can show that you've ordered them and are awaiting delivery and have done what you were told to do in the meantime, you can't be responsible.

 

[MotCO]

Thank you for your reply . Actually I wasn't wearing safety shoes but this is because although I ordered them through my depot manager months ago they have not been delivered, so I haven't been issued any yet. My depot manager is chasing it up so I am kind of hoping they won't pin that on me ☹️

Although you were not wearing officially issued safety shoes, were you wearing suitable shoes - e.g. not flip-flops?

Also, has your injury been diagnosed yet? With any luck it may just be a bad sprain.

 

[43066]

In the very worst case scenario, and they were to dismiss you, as it was an accident at work there may be the option of making a personal injury claim. I wouldn't advise this course of action if they aren't planning to go down the dismissal route, for hopefully obvious reasons...

Never say never . I do know of someone who did exactly this, and quite rightly, after being badly injured by a raised walking route collapsing. From memory the claim was against the TOC because the accident happened in carriage sidings which Network Rail weren’t responsible for.

It was a long established staff member, so not relevant to the OP’s situation, but making such a claim isn’t necessarily incompatible with continuing in employment with the same organisation.

 

[PupCuff]

Never say never . I do know of someone who did exactly this, and quite rightly, after being badly injured by a raised walking route collapsing. From memory the claim was against the TOC because the accident happened in carriage sidings which Network Rail weren’t responsible for.

It was a long established staff member, so not relevant to the OP’s situation, but making such a claim isn’t necessarily incompatible with continuing in employment with the same organisation.

Absolutely, personal injury claims are ten a penny (successful ones less so) - but a long established staff member's in a much stronger position ref their continued employment than someone who's a) still in their probation and b) been employed for less than two years.

 

[AverageJoe]

part of the arriving to work fit for duty is having the full complement of required kit and clothing.

It’s naughty that they sent you out there without it but it’s also on you to make sure you arrive for work correctly.

Not saying this to scare you and hopefully nothing will come of it but in future I would either provide my own safety footwear or refuse to work until it has arrived.

As a driver I need to have shoes that are a minimum EN ISO 20345:2011 certified.
Not sure if it’s the same for guards.

Just make sure you've got correspondence/paperwork regarding this as they might try to pin this on you; however if you can show that you've ordered them and are awaiting delivery and have done what you were told to do in the meantime, you can't be responsible.

Agreed that it is not the ops fault the shoes have not arrived but it still stands that on the railway you must present yourself fit for work with full kit and safety clothing when booking on.

There is blame on both sides here but more often than not it’s not the management that fall foul of these mistakes.

 

[Horizon22]

Agreed that it is not the ops fault the shoes have not arrived but it still stands that on the railway you must present yourself fit for work with full kit and safety clothing when booking on.

There is blame on both sides here but more often than not it’s not the management that fall foul of these mistakes.

You are doing a lot of assuming in this post. If they've allowed the OP to go out and route learn for months what are they to do? Just sit in the depot not doing anything?

That's why I said they need to dig up the correspondence.

 

[AverageJoe]

You are doing a lot of assuming in this post. If they've allowed the OP to go out and route learn for months what are they to do? Just sit in the depot not doing anything?

That's why I said they need to dig up the correspondence.

As someone who works on the railway and has rules and T&Cs to abide by I think it’s not too much of a stretch to assume they will be under the same rules.

If you work on the railway then I would expect you to understand my comment.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Would safety footwear be required for a trainee guard doing route learning? Shouldn't be any need to go on the track or be doing anything with ramps, or indeed anything a "normal" passenger wouldn't be doing (perhaps with an exception of popping on/off the train more often)

 

[AverageJoe]

Would safety footwear be required for a trainee guard doing route learning? Shouldn't be any need to go on the track or be doing anything with ramps, or indeed anything a "normal" passenger wouldn't be doing (perhaps with an exception of popping on/off the train more often)

Possibly not. And I wasn’t saying it trying to worry the op.

As a driver I was required to wear full PPE and uniform during my training and the first days of training were all about booking on and what equipment we must have.

 

[Horizon22]

As someone who works on the railway and has rules and T&Cs to abide by I think it’s not too much of a stretch to assume they will be under the same rules.

If you work on the railway then I would expect you to understand my comment.

You know none of the background involved and seem to be doing a learning towards blaming the employee and looking at issues that have already been discussed.

Yes you abide by the rules, but if you are new to the industry and have been advised one thing by a manager and nobody (such as colleagues or a union) has raised a problem, you can't really be retroactively challenged on that. Hence why the individual in question

 

[AverageJoe]

You know none of the background involved and seem to be doing a learning towards blaming the employee and looking at issues that have already been discussed.

Yes you abide by the rules, but if you are new to the industry and have been advised one thing by a manager and nobody (such as colleagues or a union) has raised a problem, you can't really be retroactively challenged on that. Hence why the individual in question

in an early post I offered advice and showed empathy on the initial issue.

The point of not wearing safety shoes was brought up by someone else and then continued by the op so I don’t see why it is wrong for me to comment on it.

None of what i said is an attack on the op. This is a railway forum so I brought up rules that apply on the railway and again shared some advice that will hopefully be useful to the op as regards next time refuse to work or provide your own.

Whether new or not on the railway you should always say no if asked to break rules, t&c or company policy.

The people that tend to get sacked from the railway are the ones that break rules not the ones that refuse to… even at the request of management.

The fact that safety shoes are required for the role, they are likely PTS trained and could potentially have already done trackside PTS training or even as a trainee be asked to go trackside during work says to me that safety shoes are a required part of full uniform when booking on.

This is speculation based on this being a railway forum, them working on the railway and me working on the railway.

My post about this subject was purely to provide a warning that they could try to use this against them as unfortunately the blame often goes to the driver or guard.

Obviously if I’m wrong then then op will know this when reading it and just disregard it and if I’m right then it might be informative for them and help them in the future.

My hope is they get full support from work, heal quickly and get back into the role as soon as possible.

 

[samma]

Although you were not wearing officially issued safety shoes, were you wearing suitable shoes - e.g. not flip-flops?

Also, has your injury been diagnosed yet? With any luck it may just be a bad sprain.

I was wearing pretty sturdy shoes defo not flip flops ☺️ I can't have an MRI until the swelling has gone down , I'm still completely unable to walk as my knee buckles backwards () and is excruciatingly painful if I put any weight on it . I'm absolutely praying that it's a small tear and not something that needs an op but doesn't feel hopeful right now . Thank you for taking the time to reply .

in an early post I offered advice and showed empathy on the initial issue.

The point of not wearing safety shoes was brought up by someone else and then continued by the op so I don’t see why it is wrong for me to comment on it.

None of what i said is an attack on the op. This is a railway forum so I brought up rules that apply on the railway and again shared some advice that will hopefully be useful to the op as regards next time refuse to work or provide your own.

Whether new or not on the railway you should always say no if asked to break rules, t&c or company policy.

The people that tend to get sacked from the railway are the ones that break rules not the ones that refuse to… even at the request of management.

The fact that safety shoes are required for the role, they are likely PTS trained and could potentially have already done trackside PTS training or even as a trainee be asked to go trackside during work says to me that safety shoes are a required part of full uniform when booking on.

This is speculation based on this being a railway forum, them working on the railway and me working on the railway.

My post about this subject was purely to provide a warning that they could try to use this against them as unfortunately the blame often goes to the driver or guard.

Obviously if I’m wrong then then op will know this when reading it and just disregard it and if I’m right then it might be informative for them and help them in the future.

My hope is they get full support from work, heal quickly and get back into the role as soon as possible.

Thank you for your message.
I totally get what you are saying, but I have been in my depot numerous times , out on trains with guards inspectors and trainers from the ROC , all of which were aware of what I had on my feet and no one has ever told me that I can't be on a train without proper safety footwear, I've been told me are supposed to wear them but it's been accepted they have not been issued to me , I have always worn sturdy walking shoes or proper brogues . My depot manager is also aware my safety footwear has not arrived and in fact he checked for me again last week and said he'd follow it up, it's not just me either , there are a couple of us still waiting. Surely if it's a hard and fast rule we should have been told not to go near a train until we had the correct footwear ?
No guards seem to wear them anyway but I guess it's fine until you have an incident like this . Just a freak accident and such rubbish timing !

 

[AverageJoe]

I was wearing pretty sturdy shoes defo not flip flops ☺️ I can't have an MRI until the swelling has gone down , I'm still completely unable to walk as my knee buckles backwards () and is excruciatingly painful if I put any weight on it . I'm absolutely praying that it's a small tear and not something that needs an op but doesn't feel hopeful right now . Thank you for taking the time to reply .


Thank you for your message.
I totally get what you are saying, but I have been in my depot numerous times , out on trains with guards inspectors and trainers from the ROC , all of which were aware of what I had on my feet and no one has ever told me that I can't be on a train without proper safety footwear, I've been told me are supposed to wear them but it's been accepted they have not been issued to me , I have always worn sturdy walking shoes or proper brogues . My depot manager is also aware my safety footwear has not arrived and in fact he checked for me again last week and said he'd follow it up, it's not just me either , there are a couple of us still waiting. Surely if it's a hard and fast rule we should have been told not to go near a train until we had the correct footwear ?
No guards seem to wear them anyway but I guess it's fine until you have an incident like this . Just a freak accident and such rubbish timing !

As you say in the last comment it’s fine until it goes wrong and then they possibly go digging.

Hopefully it won’t be an issue for you at all.