Signalling Variety in UK?

[PaulMac]

Is there much variation in signalling systems throughout UK? Say a driver from Aberdeen transferred to Penzance. Would he need to learn an entirely novel system of signals and rules, as well as the lines and rolling stock?

 

[Krokodil]

Is there much variation in signalling systems throughout UK? Say a driver from Aberdeen transferred to Penzance. Would he need to learn an entirely novel system of signals and rules, as well as the lines and rolling stock?

There shouldn't be much in Penzance that would faze an Aberdeen driver. Up the road in Inverness however they would need to learn Radio Electronic Token Block. Further afield there are lines equipped with various forms of cab signalling.

 

[Harpo]

Most double track runs should be just AB/TCB (absolute or track circuit block). There are only comparatively tiny bits of double track ETCS so far.

Single lines are where the variations and diversity of driver knowledge could get interesting, possibly more so for freight drivers.

 

[PaulMac]

Most double track runs should be just AB/TCB (absolute or track circuit block). There are only comparatively tiny bits of double track ETCS so far.

Single lines are where the variations and diversity of driver knowledge could get interesting, possibly more so for freight drivers.

Are train orders a thing in the UK for dark (unsignalled) areas of the rail network?

 

[Lytham Local]

There shouldn't be much in Penzance that would faze an Aberdeen driver. Up the road in Inverness however they would need to learn Radio Electronic Token Block. Further afield there are lines equipped with various forms of cab signalling.

They'd probably panic on the Bentham line though when they wonder where the signals are

 

[zwk500]

Are train orders a thing in the UK for dark (unsignalled) areas of the rail network?

Dark territory and train orders don't really exist in the UK. If a running line doesn't have track circuits or axle counters interlocked into the signalling protecting it it'll have a train staff or token system (physical or digital/radio) to control movements, which will also be interlocked into the signalling. There may be some unsignalled freight lines but they're largely considered essentially long sidings, and the connection to the main line will have signalling protection of some kind. Yards are the same - they may be unsignalled within but the connection onto a running line should have signalling protection.
Even the most rural lines will have signalling of some kind - from normal colour-light signalling to fixed boards with 'Stop and Obtain Permission to Proceed' written on them.

There are Special Stop Orders for passenger trains if stopping patterns need to be changed at short notice, but these don't constitute a movement authority. Trains (passenger or freight) being diverted would be given a phone call from the signaller to check they knew the route (apart from a few pre-authorised routes), and trains needing to be held for regulation of traffic would simply be held at signals.

 

[Harpo]

I believe that Network Rail routes only have written orders for degraded modes of operation when full normal signalling integrity is lost or impaired.

 

[Chrius56000]

Carnforth – Settle Junction is still regarded as a full AB section despite it being the longest such length currently on N.R. (33 miles approx) with no intermediate block signals or block posts!

Chris Williams

 

[norbitonflyer]

Are train orders a thing in the UK for dark (unsignalled) areas of the rail network?

There are no unsignalled areas of the UK rail network. The signalling may be not be by "lamps on sticks" (eg it may be radio electronic token block - a signal transmitted over radio), but all running lines are under the control of a signaller - if only to allow access to and egress from a long branch.

 

[43066]

Is there much variation in signalling systems throughout UK? Say a driver from Aberdeen transferred to Penzance. Would he need to learn an entirely novel system of signals and rules, as well as the lines and rolling stock?

Most of the variety is in the SE/London area. Off the top of my head: KVB and TVM-400 on HS1, ETCS on the Thameslink core, Elizabeth Line (and soon on ECML south), CBTC also on Elizabeth line. All of these are combined with traditional colour light signalling on some parts of the route. Some mainline trains that share lines with London Underground are (or were) fitted with Train-stop/trip cocks to interface with an LU system.

Away from that The Cambrian lines in Wales are ETCS.

Otherwise the signalling is standard across essentially the whole network - albeit there are regional variations, eg some drivers will never touch token block working, semaphores or level crossings, so quite a bit of retraining on these areas, in addition to route learning, will be needed when moving around.

 

[Krokodil]

Honourable mention to the Snowdon Mountain Railway, which does use a form of train orders.

 

[edwin_m]

The Ravenglass and Eskdale pioneered train orders in the UK back in the 1970s - does it still use them?

 

[cool110]

Some mainline trains that share lines with London Underground are (or were) fitted with Train-stop/trip cocks to interface with an LU system.

Also Merseyrail, since the underground sections use LU-style signalling.

 

[John Webb]

The Ravenglass and Eskdale pioneered train orders in the UK back in the 1970s - does it still use them?

I believe so, as does the Bure Valley line in Norfolk. But these are isolated narrow-gauge tourist attractions and not part of the national network as such.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Is there much variation in signalling systems throughout UK? Say a driver from Aberdeen transferred to Penzance. Would he need to learn an entirely novel system of signals and rules, as well as the lines and rolling stock?

Very few signalling systems have a specific course or competency attached to them on the driving side. It’s mostly done as a part of route knowledge.

To use your analogy, the only signalling system that a Penzance driver uses that an Aberdeen driver doesn’t is One Train Working with Train Staff, which the driver would simply be taught when they learn the route on which it applies (St Ives). But as Aberdeen and Penzance (unsurprisingly!) don’t have any common route knowledge said driver would have to learn all the routes and their signalling from scratch anyway

 

[robvulpes]

I believe so, ......... But these are isolated narrow-gauge tourist attractions and not part of the national network as such.

It does. Train order issued for one return journey by duty Controller at Ravenglass, with confirmation of authority to proceed into each section (other than leaving Ravenglass, which is semaphore signalled) given by Radio.

 

[jadmor]

I came across this interesting diagram showing signalling arrangements on the Up Line leaving Perth and approaching the semaphore signalled Hilton Junction. it appears to predate the use of "feathers" indicating a diverging route (so probably installed in the late 1950s or early 1960s). I can't recall seeing a signal setup like it before.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

I came across this interesting diagram showing signalling arrangements on the Up Line leaving Perth and approaching the semaphore signalled Hilton Junction. it appears to predate the use of "feathers" indicating a diverging route (so probably installed in the late 1950s or early 1960s). I can't recall seeing a signal setup like it before.View attachment 178080

Splitting distants reappeared in the rule book a few years ago although I'm not aware of where they are in use.

 

[Railsigns]

I came across this interesting diagram showing signalling arrangements on the Up Line leaving Perth and approaching the semaphore signalled Hilton Junction. it appears to predate the use of "feathers" indicating a diverging route (so probably installed in the late 1950s or early 1960s). I can't recall seeing a signal setup like it before.

That's a splitting distant signal. They were quite common at one time but then fell out of favour for a while. While there are a few modern examples around now, the one south of Perth is the last 'old' one that still survives.

A splitting distant signal doesn't have the same function as a feather, and both can coexist as elements of the same junction signalling arrangement. The feather (or alternative form of route indication) is displayed at the junction signal itself, whereas the splitting distant signal gives advance routeing information on approach to the junction signal.

There are photographs of the Perth splitting distant signals (outer and inner signals) on this page of my website.

 

[Melancholia]

Splitting distants reappeared in the rule book a few years ago although I'm not aware of where they are in use.

Quite widely used on the Great Western Mainline

 

[Jimini]

Quite widely used on the Great Western Mainline

Think I’ve seen one around Tilehurst on the up relief?

 

[Railsigns]

Splitting distant signals are in use today at the following junctions:

Hilton Jcn. (Up Main)
Airport Jcn. (Down Main)
Tilehurst East Jcn. (Up Main)
Ruscombe (Up Relief)
Acton West (Up Main)
Stockley Bridge Jcn. (Up Relief)
Muirhouse North Jcn. (Up Muirhouse)
Tilehurst East Jcn. (Down Relief)
Bicester South Jcn. (Down Main)

 

[Jimini]

Splitting distant signals are in use today at the following junctions:

Hilton Jcn. (Up Main)
Airport Jcn. (Down Main)
Tilehurst East Jcn. (Up Main)
Ruscombe (Up Relief)
Acton West (Up Main)
Stockley Bridge Jcn. (Up Relief)
Muirhouse North Jcn. (Up Muirhouse)
Tilehurst East Jcn. (Down Relief)
Bicester South Jcn. (Down Main)

Great — thanks for sharing. I was getting my mains and reliefs muddled up there!

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Quite widely used on the Great Western Mainline

Splitting distant signals are in use today at the following junctions:

Hilton Jcn. (Up Main)
Airport Jcn. (Down Main)
Tilehurst East Jcn. (Up Main)
Ruscombe (Up Relief)
Acton West (Up Main)
Stockley Bridge Jcn. (Up Relief)
Muirhouse North Jcn. (Up Muirhouse)
Tilehurst East Jcn. (Down Relief)
Bicester South Jcn. (Down Main)

Thank you for the info! I've only ever signed routes in the north of England so I've never seen them.

 

[PaulMac]

This is all very interesting. Thanks.

Glad to see flimsy paper train orders that fly out of every open cab window aren’t popular any more.

 

[30907]

This is all very interesting. Thanks.

Glad to see flimsy paper train orders that fly out of every open cab window aren’t popular any more.

Disappeared in the late C19th I think

 

[tumbledown]

Disappeared in the late C19th I think

Had the bulldog clip not been invented by then?

 

[Legolash2o]

Hope this map helps.

https://gbrailwaydata.co.uk/public/signallingmap

 

[Class15]

The Ravenglass and Eskdale pioneered train orders in the UK back in the 1970s - does it still use them?

Apologies for my ignorance but what are ‘train orders’?

 

[edwin_m]

Apologies for my ignorance but what are ‘train orders’?

Basically where there is no signalling but a driver is given an "order" to proceed over a certain section. The orders are produced by a dispatcher who is fully responsible for not issuing conflicting ones, possibly by marking an arrow on a graph whenever they issue one to show that section is occupied until the train reports at the other end. This was the predominant system in North America and still is on a few lines. Originally the dispatcher telegraphed the orders to a member of staff at each passing station, who wrote them out and handed them to the driver. These days the driver is dictated the order by radio and writes it down on a special pad.