Smoking bylaw question

[Eric87]

Hi everyone,

This seemed like the best place to ask this, apologies if I'm in the wrong place.

Earlier this evening, I was caught smoking at Bethnal Green overground station. I was told that he wouldn't fine me there and then, but that it was a bylaw, and so it would be reported officially. Looking around online, it seems that I will most likely recieve a fine through the post, or possibly a court summons. The court summons worries me, as this is the closest I have ever come to comitting a criminal act, and I'd rather not have a record.

I admitted to smoking and didn't argue, and when he asked why I'd been smoking, I explained about the evening I'd had:

I will soon be leaving London, and I wanted to see a group of friends one last time. I invited almost 30 people. Five people turned up, which made me feel pretty lousy. One person then left without saying goodbye to anyone, and then another left early. Shortly after this, one of my friends fainted twice. We waited 25 minutes for an ambulance, then spent half an hour in there with her, and then we pretty much had no choice but to wait for a cab to absolutely ensure she got home safe, 'cause she's stubborn and was trying to insist on going home alone.
On top of this, she fainted twice whilst outside, on the front steps of the pub. The doorman, who saw her faint literally right in front of his eyes, instead of offering sympathy or help, actually got into an argument with us about us sitting on the steps and he was basically kicking us off them. While my friend is still faint and dizzy. Oh, and of the three people left, one also left us to go hang out with another group of friends, whilst we were waiting for the ambulance.

So, by the end of the evening, I was feeling annoyed by people not replying to the invite, feeling lonely that only five people turned up, feeling worried about my friend getting home safe, and on top of that still angry with the doorman, to the point where my hands were shaking. So, whilst waiting for my train, I had a cigarette for my nerves.
It was about 10 to midnight, and at the time I lit my cigarette, there were only two other people on the platform, nowhere near me.

The enforcement officer guy told me when I recieve the letter, to write down my evening exactly as I told him, and that he'd written on his form that he would verify my story (he gave me his badge number, and also pointed out that no one would make up a story like that in order to get away with smoking, and that I did indeed look like I'd had a crappy evening). To his credit, he was very polite and friendly about it.

What I'm wondering is: what is the process from here? Is it likely to be a fine, and if so, how much is to be expected? Or is there a chance that I could be summoned to court and get a criminal record?
I've looked around trying to find some kind of department for national rail enforcement officers, or some contact information or some sort of official body which is responsible for sending out summons, but I can find none.

I would really appreciate any advice, help, or information anyone could give me on this.

Thank you in advance!

 

[es373]

The court summons will either turn out as you guilty which means youll receive a fine (I know of someone who was ordered to pay £1000 fine, was let off after a court battle, its a long story) or community service (com service is highly doubted but the fine could be a fair bit!) or not guilty which means you get away with it. Should the judge be pretty level headed he may let you off but as the railway bylaws often get broken I doubt youd be let off.

I really cannot see you being issued with a criminal record for your offence, but having said that it is an offence if you know what I mean.
Let us know what happens.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What I'm wondering is: what is the process from here? Is it likely to be a fine, and if so, how much is to be expected? Or is there a chance that I could be summoned to court and get a criminal record?
I've looked around trying to find some kind of department for national rail enforcement officers, or some contact information or some sort of official body which is responsible for sending out summons, but I can find none.

I expect that the Train Operating Company (TOC) which manages the station concerned will take up this matter, their Prosecutions Department will probably write to you asking you to make a statement. You can use this to provide your version of events which will assist the Prosecutions Dept to decide whether or not to proceed. Perhaps the Statement you have already given is adequate.
If they then decide to enforce the violation, then they will write asking you to admit or deny the offence and will give you an opportunity to admit it, which will avoid the matter reaching a Court. You will also have the opportunity to provide a Statement of Means (a summary of your income). This will lead to a Fine being imposed.

I really cannot see you being issued with a criminal record for your offence, but having said that it is an offence if you know what I mean.

By admitting to a Byelaw Offence without even reaching a Court should not result in a Criminal Records and should not be recorded on the Police National Computer.

I can't imagine why you would want this to go to Court.

 

[Eric87]

Dave, that's really reassuring, and it sounds reasonable. Thanks for the quick responses, guys!

 

[Old Timer]

I doubt very much that anything other than a letter warning about the matter will happen.

TOCs despite what some would have you believe are very unlikely to take a case like this to Court, as the Magistrates would not be happy to hear one like this.

In general there would need to be some form of additional aggravating factor such as you refusing or causing a disturbance, which from what I read was not the case.

It does seem rather a heavy handed approach but then I guess these people are given targets to meet, and those above them are given the ability to exercise discretion.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

If people disobey the Law, then they should be made an example of.
Otherwise we would just have anarchy.
I'm sick of people smoking on our local station, while leaning on the no smoking sign. Also smoking at the entrance to a station, it is illegal on all railway property.

 

[bnm]

Also smoking at the entrance to a station, it is illegal on all railway property.

Outside the entrance may not be railway property, could be the public highway. Also it is only illegal on unenclosed railway property 'on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.' (Byelaw 3)

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Outside the entrance may not be railway property, could be the public highway. Also it is only illegal on unenclosed railway property 'on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.' (Byelaw 3)

Most platforms are unenclosed, and it is illegal to smoke on them, sign or not (apart from the fact it is an offense in itself NOT to display a sign anyway.
I never said outside the entrance, I said at, like at Leeds, where there are canopies, signs, and no enforcement.

 

[class377man]

I'm surprised it got that far tbh.

Last time I saw someone smoking on the platform, a police officer told him to either leave the station or put it out and that was the end of it. I don't think the copper saw him take another puff and throw the lit fag on the line mind you...

 

[tony_mac]

Most platforms are unenclosed, and it is illegal to smoke on them, sign or not (apart from the fact it is an offense in itself NOT to display a sign anyway.
I never said outside the entrance, I said at, like at Leeds, where there are canopies, signs, and no enforcement.

If platforms are not enclosed, and there is no sign, then it is not illegal to smoke on them; you see Merseyrail staff doing it all the time.

it is illegal on all railway property.

No, it isn't; this has been discussed here before - and bnm already gave the correct information.

 

[bnm]

Most platforms are unenclosed, and it is illegal to smoke on them, sign or not (apart from the fact it is an offense in itself NOT to display a sign anyway.

I see nothing in the relevant legislation - Smoke-free (Premises and Enforcement) Regulations 2006 - that says anything about platforms. Neither do Railway Byelaws explicitly mention platforms. You commit a byelaw offence if you smoke in the vicinity of a 'No Smoking' sign. You commit a Smoke-free Regulations offence if you smoke in an enclosed or substantially enclosed place.

If there's no sign and the area is not enclosed or substantially enclosed* then you do not commit an offence.

I never said outside the entrance, I said at, like at Leeds, where there are canopies, signs, and no enforcement.

You said 'it is illegal on all railway property'. Where's that legislation?

*Enclosed and substantially enclosed premises

2.—(1) For the purposes of section 2 of the Act, premises are enclosed if they—
(a)have a ceiling or roof; and
(b)except for doors, windows and passageways, are wholly enclosed either permanently or temporarily.

(2) For the purposes of section 2 of the Act, premises are substantially enclosed if they have a ceiling or roof but there is—
(a)an opening in the walls; or
(b)an aggregate area of openings in the walls,which is less than half of the area of the walls, including other structures that serve the purpose of walls and constitute the perimeter of the premises.

(3) In determining the area of an opening or an aggregate area of openings for the purposes of paragraph (2), no account is to be taken of openings in which there are doors, windows or other fittings that can be opened or shut.

(4) In this regulation “roof” includes any fixed or moveable structure or device which is capable of covering all or part of the premises as a roof, including, for example, a canvas awning.

 

[Eric87]

Okay, just to avoid confusion, it was unenclosed, outside in the open air. But there was a no smoking sign nearby. So I take it that means it is a byelaw offence?

I'm not disputing that technically I did commit an offence, my original concern was what happens from here, and whether there is anywhere in that process in which the specific circumstances could be brought up and taken into account, and specifically, avoiding any hassle with courts. Which does sound like it's possible, I think?

 

[Intermodal]

Okay, just to avoid confusion, it was unenclosed, outside in the open air. But there was a no smoking sign nearby. So I take it that means it is a byelaw offence?

I'm not disputing that technically I did commit an offence, my original concern was what happens from here, and whether there is anywhere in that process in which the specific circumstances could be brought up and taken into account, and specifically, avoiding any hassle with courts. Which does sound like it's possible, I think?

Yes - it is a byelaw offence if there is a sign nearby. This prosecution (if it comes to that) will not result in a criminal record as it is a byelaw offence. I would recommend co-operating with them, paying any fine they give you, and not doing it again.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

If platforms are not enclosed, and there is no sign, then it is not illegal to smoke on them; you see Merseyrail staff doing it all the time.


No, it isn't; this has been discussed here before - and bnm already gave the correct information.

When it launched in Scotland all those years ago, I remember it being something along the lines "50% or more covered overhead", so you could have stations like Paisley, with its canopies being subject to the ban, even though it's open above the lines.

 

[Eric87]

Technically you did commit an offence?

(Comment removed)

Yes, I get it, I DID screw up, I shouldn't have done that. But it's not like I was just having a casual cigarette for the sake of it. I was furious with an a-hole doorman who, and I say this literally without exaggeration, stood and watched my friends eyes roll back into her head as she fainted, and continued to stand there doing and saying nothing, then proceeded to discourteously tell us to sod off the steps the moment she regained consciousness. I was furious and literally shaking.
If you were a smoker, and your evening had gone from downer to downer, and someone had pushed you so far past your tolerance of crap that your hands were shaking, what would you have done?

 

[es373]

As an ex doorman - it's code of practise not to lay a finger on anyone that is not inside of the venue.
People do make serious allegations when they're drunk. Women especially if you know what I'm saying.
I smoke so does that give me the right to light up on a train or in a station whenever I'm seething mad with someone.
No, it doesnt.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

As an ex doorman - it's code of practise not to lay a finger on anyone that is not inside of the venue.
People do make serious allegations when they're drunk. Women especially if you know what I'm saying.
I smoke so does that give me the right to light up on a train or in a station whenever I'm seething mad with someone.
No, it doesnt.

Quote>

When the smoking ban was introduced, the railways decided that is would ban smoking on every railway station regardless of enclosed or not and the by-laws were amended to reflect this. The railway by-laws are enforcable laws of the land and people caught breaking them can and regularly do find themselves having a chin wag with a judge to discuss the errors of their ways. I bet every memeber of this forum has seen this law being broken every single time they stand on a railway station with little being done to prevent this except at the largest stations. Passengers either arent aware of smoking being banned on railway premesis or are too ignorant to bother to abide by the law.

 

[The Sleeper]

If platforms are not enclosed, and there is no sign, then it is not illegal to smoke on them; you see Merseyrail staff doing it all the time.


No, it isn't; this has been discussed here before - and bnm already gave the correct information.

Just a minor point = Scottish Law is different -in Scotland you can smoke in a non enclosed area on railway property.

 

[merlodlliw]

If people disobey the Law, then they should be made an example of.
Otherwise we would just have anarchy.

sorry but have you never disobeyed a law, as you call it.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The blanket smoking ban was never really thought through. Look at the crazy situation you have at Urmston on the Liverpool bound platform. There is a pub called the Steam House occupying the station buildings - it has a smoking area with tables and a little picket fence and awnings covering it actually on the platform. The other side of the picket fence (in the open and uncovered) is no smoking.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

What about smoking at bus stops, is that legal or not? when they are in the street but consist of a shelter?

Years ago I was smoking at school and got caught which resulted in a short but painful (for me) meeting in the Headmasters office, but we are talking early 1970s then so that would not apply now. I do not smoke now by the way.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

if a bus shelter has three sides you can't smoke in it

 

[table38]

"Interestingly" I am of the opinion that the smoking shelter at Manchester Piccadilly just outside the main car-park door adjacent to Platform 1 does not comply with the legislation as it fails on the

an aggregate area of openings in the walls,which is less than half of the area of the walls, including other structures that serve the purpose of walls and constitute the perimeter of the premises

provision. I only know this because of what they had to do to our smoking shelter at work to make it compliant.

I keep meaning to take a photo, but there are always people in it and I didn't want to cause any fuss etc.

(I don't smoke any more, just an observation!)

 

[boing_uk]

As a smoker myself, I tend to be pragmatic about the smoking ban on railway property.

Take Squires Gate for example; if I am the only one there, I may light up in the shelter. If there are already people there and my train isnt for a few minutes, I'll either have a swift one while leaning on the guardrail at the bus stop on the road, or if I am already on the station, I will do it down the far end of the platform - I would never smoke near anyone as it is just rude.

Conversely, at larger stations I never smoke within the station as there are usually too many other people about and it would be impolite. As a smoker I accept there are places where I cannot smoke due to other people, therefore it is up to me to move myself to somewhere appropriate, whether I am in a mood or not and regardless of whether other people are smoking there.

I have no sympathy for the OP in this case; knew it was wrong, with the chance of staff being around and still proceeded to smoke.

Its like peeing in public; there are some places you can do it and get away with it. And there are some places you really shouldn't.

 

[Greenback]

As a smoker myself, I tend to be pragmatic about the smoking ban on railway property.

Take Squires Gate for example; if I am the only one there, I may light up in the shelter. If there are already people there and my train isnt for a few minutes, I'll either have a swift one while leaning on the guardrail at the bus stop on the road, or if I am already on the station, I will do it down the far end of the platform - I would never smoke near anyone as it is just rude.

Conversely, at larger stations I never smoke within the station as there are usually too many other people about and it would be impolite. As a smoker I accept there are places where I cannot smoke due to other people, therefore it is up to me to move myself to somewhere appropriate, whether I am in a mood or not and regardless of whether other people are smoking there.

I have no sympathy for the OP in this case; knew it was wrong, with the chance of staff being around and still proceeded to smoke.

Its like peeing in public; there are some places you can do it and get away with it. And there are some places you really shouldn't.

I agree, though I would never smoke in a shelter. In the OP's case, perhaps a visit to court might ensure that they think twice before doing it again? My brother has never urinated in public since he was arrested for it and fined by the court in the early 1990's!

 

[TDK]

Hi everyone,

This seemed like the best place to ask this, apologies if I'm in the wrong place.

Earlier this evening, I was caught smoking at Bethnal Green overground station. I was told that he wouldn't fine me there and then, but that it was a bylaw, and so it would be reported officially. Looking around online, it seems that I will most likely recieve a fine through the post, or possibly a court summons. The court summons worries me, as this is the closest I have ever come to comitting a criminal act, and I'd rather not have a record.

I admitted to smoking and didn't argue, and when he asked why I'd been smoking, I explained about the evening I'd had:

I will soon be leaving London, and I wanted to see a group of friends one last time. I invited almost 30 people. Five people turned up, which made me feel pretty lousy. One person then left without saying goodbye to anyone, and then another left early. Shortly after this, one of my friends fainted twice. We waited 25 minutes for an ambulance, then spent half an hour in there with her, and then we pretty much had no choice but to wait for a cab to absolutely ensure she got home safe, 'cause she's stubborn and was trying to insist on going home alone.
On top of this, she fainted twice whilst outside, on the front steps of the pub. The doorman, who saw her faint literally right in front of his eyes, instead of offering sympathy or help, actually got into an argument with us about us sitting on the steps and he was basically kicking us off them. While my friend is still faint and dizzy. Oh, and of the three people left, one also left us to go hang out with another group of friends, whilst we were waiting for the ambulance.

So, by the end of the evening, I was feeling annoyed by people not replying to the invite, feeling lonely that only five people turned up, feeling worried about my friend getting home safe, and on top of that still angry with the doorman, to the point where my hands were shaking. So, whilst waiting for my train, I had a cigarette for my nerves.
It was about 10 to midnight, and at the time I lit my cigarette, there were only two other people on the platform, nowhere near me.

The enforcement officer guy told me when I recieve the letter, to write down my evening exactly as I told him, and that he'd written on his form that he would verify my story (he gave me his badge number, and also pointed out that no one would make up a story like that in order to get away with smoking, and that I did indeed look like I'd had a crappy evening). To his credit, he was very polite and friendly about it.

What I'm wondering is: what is the process from here? Is it likely to be a fine, and if so, how much is to be expected? Or is there a chance that I could be summoned to court and get a criminal record?
I've looked around trying to find some kind of department for national rail enforcement officers, or some contact information or some sort of official body which is responsible for sending out summons, but I can find none.

I would really appreciate any advice, help, or information anyone could give me on this.

Thank you in advance!

Firstly it isn't a bye law - it is the law, it is illegal to smoke where indicated and you have broken the law I am afraid, as for the consequences, I hope you just get a warning and not a fine or criminal record as you will have learned your lesson, you may get a fixed penalty fine and no record and this I hope is the worse of the outcomes.

Firstly you need to see if there is adequate signage to battle your case and see what the law says about such signage, secondly it may be of use to write an apology letter to the department that is handling the offence after you get any communications.

In fact it is now a criminal act as far as I am aware so you have now commited one.

You haven't said who approached you?

You will also need to know if the person who approached you is actually permitted to enforce the law of smoking and able to officially report you.

Godd luck

 

[Intermodal]

Firstly it isn't a bye law - it is the law, it is illegal to smoke where indicated and you have broken the law I am afraid, as for the consequences.

This is potentially false. It is not a offence in UK law to smoke on an open railway station and as far as I can tell, Bethnal Green is an open station. It is only an offence to smoke in substantially enclosed or enclosed areas. It is a byelaw offence to smoke near a sign on railway property regardless of where it is.

 

[TDK]

This is potentially false. It is not a offence in UK law to smoke on an open railway station and as far as I can tell, Bethnal Green is an open station. It is only an offence to smoke in substantially enclosed or enclosed areas. It is a byelaw offence to smoke near a sign on railway property regardless of where it is.

Thgis may be partially true, but the signs I have seen say it is an offence to smoke on this station, also trains and other structures, maybe you are correct however if this is true surely ther is no criminal offece so no worries from the OP

 

[Intermodal]

Thgis may be partially true, but the signs I have seen say it is an offence to smoke on this station, also trains and other structures, maybe you are correct however if this is true surely ther is no criminal offece so no worries from the OP

A copy of the relevant parts of the Health Act 2006 was posted on page one of this thread - if you read it you will see it does not prohibit smoking on stations. I believe the terms "offence" and "byelaw offence" are used interchangeably by TOCs and the byelaw states:

3. Smoking
No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter
or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a
notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.

24. Enforcement

(1) Offence and level of fines
Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and,
with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a
penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

Level three on the standard scale is £1000.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just a quick note I thought of - would a member of railway staff be able to report you for violating the Health Act 2006 anyway - aren't they limited to Railway Byelaws?

 

[tony_mac]

It don't see that it makes any difference what sort of offence it is - both are non-recordable offences punishable by a fine.

and the by-laws were amended to reflect this.

The byelaws pre-date the smoking ban; they didn't need to change as they just had to put signs up.

Just a minor point = Scottish Law is different -in Scotland you can smoke in a non enclosed area on railway property.

ATOC's opinion is that

Though there are some difference in scope between the Scottish, Welsh and English legislation, they may be regarded as identical for all practical purposes as far as the rail industry is concerned.

While the Scottish law is different, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You can also smoke in non-enclosed areas on railway property in England, providing there are no signs prohibiting it.
Both Merseyrail and Scotrail allow smoking on some open platforms.