Southern class 171 unit reforming.

[stadler]

Does anyone know why Southern reformed their 171s in to three coach units? What was the point of doing this as there must be a reason behind it?

This reforming has just resulted in shorter trains and less capacity. I can not think of anything positive that has come from this.

Marshlink was always two coaches up until 2020 and then finally in 2020 it got four coaches. This was a huge improvement as this line can get very busy and two coach trains were ridiculously overcrowded. In fact even the four coach trains were not enough. I have even seen four coach trains at Rye that have been full and standing with people standing in the aisles and every available space. The worst are the peak time and school time services and also summer holiday services when Rye can get very busy. So four coach was a massive improvement but even that was not enough at certain times. But now the Marshlink has been reduced to three coach which is a big reduction in capacity and simply not enough. So this reforming has made things much worse.

Uckfield always had four coaches minimum before the reforming. You occasionally got a short formed two coach service but everything was booked four coach minimum. Even the off peak service had four coaches. Some of the peak time services even had ten coaches. Now all of the off peak services only have three coaches. So again this line has seen a big reduction in capacity. There are still some eight coach peak time trains but off peak everything is three coach and often this is not enough. Especially on the London Bridge to East Croydon section which can get very busy at all times of the day and need a bare minimum of four coaches. So again the reforming has made things worse on this line too.

So both Marshlink and Uckfield have seen a big reduction in capacity. But from what i can see this reforming seemed completely unnecessary.

The original formations until late 2022 were:
10 x two coach 171/7
6 x four coach 171/8

The new formations from late 2022 are:
4 x two coach 171/7
12 x three coach 171/8

There is also one of the four Scotrail units left but i will forget about that as i think that is going to EMR at some point soon. The other three are already gone.

So if they went back to their original formations it would seem perfectly possible to run everything as four coach minimum. Marshlink requires just three units all day. Uckfield requires just three units all day. So that is all six of the four coach units. Then you still have all ten of the two coach units available. So those two coach units can be used to extend the peak hour Uckfield services to six coach or eight coach as they are now and also for spare units too. So from what i can see the original formations would work perfectly fine and allow everything to run with four coach minimum.

I am just curious what others think of this and what exactly has been achieved by reforming in to three coach units and reducing capacity? Also is there any chance that Southern will reform them back in to their original two coach and four coach formations again?

 

[43096]

Does anyone know why Southern reformed their 171s in to three coach units? What was the point of doing this as there must be a reason behind it?

This reforming has just resulted in shorter trains and less capacity. I can not think of anything positive that has come from this.

Marshlink was always two coaches up until 2020 and then finally in 2020 it got four coaches. This was a huge improvement as this line can get very busy and two coach trains were ridiculously overcrowded. In fact even the four coach trains were not enough. I have even seen four coach trains at Rye that have been full and standing with people standing in the aisles and every available space. The worst are the peak time and school time services and also summer holiday services when Rye can get very busy. So four coach was a massive improvement but even that was not enough at certain times. But now the Marshlink has been reduced to three coach which is a big reduction in capacity and simply not enough. So this reforming has made things much worse.

Uckfield always had four coaches minimum before the reforming. You occasionally got a short formed two coach service but everything was booked four coach minimum. Even the off peak service had four coaches. Some of the peak time services even had ten coaches. Now all of the off peak services only have three coaches. So again this line has seen a big reduction in capacity. There are still some eight coach peak time trains but off peak everything is three coach and often this is not enough. Especially on the London Bridge to East Croydon section which can get very busy at all times of the day and need a bare minimum of four coaches. So again the reforming has made things worse on this line too.

So both Marshlink and Uckfield have seen a big reduction in capacity. But from what i can see this reforming seemed completely unnecessary.

The original formations until late 2022 were:
10 x two coach 171/7
6 x four coach 171/8

The new formations from late 2022 are:
4 x two coach 171/7
12 x three coach 171/8

There is also one of the four Scotrail units left but i will forget about that as i think that is going to EMR at some point soon. The other three are already gone.

So if they went back to their original formations it would seem perfectly possible to run everything as four coach minimum. Marshlink requires just three units all day. Uckfield requires just three units all day. So that is all six of the four coach units. Then you still have all ten of the two coach units available. So those two coach units can be used to extend the peak hour Uckfield services to six coach or eight coach as they are now and also for spare units too. So from what i can see the original formations would work perfectly fine and allow everything to run with four coach minimum.

I am just curious what others think of this and what exactly has been achieved by reforming in to three coach units and reducing capacity? Also is there any chance that Southern will reform them back in to their original two coach and four coach formations again?

First, you cannot diagram all six 4-car sets all day, every day - that makes no allowance for maintenance at all.

Second, from memory the Marshlink used to be 2-car sets. The new arrangement allows Marshlink sets to be 3-car, the Uckfields 5 or 6-car and peak strengthening to 8-car using the 2-car sets.

Third, there is no reduction in capacity - it's the same number of vehicles! Deployment may be different though...

 

[Doomotron]

Does anyone know why Southern reformed their 171s in to three coach units? What was the point of doing this as there must be a reason behind it?

This reforming has just resulted in shorter trains and less capacity. I can not think of anything positive that has come from this.

Marshlink was always two coaches up until 2020 and then finally in 2020 it got four coaches. This was a huge improvement as this line can get very busy and two coach trains were ridiculously overcrowded. In fact even the four coach trains were not enough. I have even seen four coach trains at Rye that have been full and standing with people standing in the aisles and every available space. The worst are the peak time and school time services and also summer holiday services when Rye can get very busy. So four coach was a massive improvement but even that was not enough at certain times. But now the Marshlink has been reduced to three coach which is a big reduction in capacity and simply not enough. So this reforming has made things much worse.

Uckfield always had four coaches minimum before the reforming. You occasionally got a short formed two coach service but everything was booked four coach minimum. Even the off peak service had four coaches. Some of the peak time services even had ten coaches. Now all of the off peak services only have three coaches. So again this line has seen a big reduction in capacity. There are still some eight coach peak time trains but off peak everything is three coach and often this is not enough. Especially on the London Bridge to East Croydon section which can get very busy at all times of the day and need a bare minimum of four coaches. So again the reforming has made things worse on this line too.

So both Marshlink and Uckfield have seen a big reduction in capacity. But from what i can see this reforming seemed completely unnecessary.

The original formations until late 2022 were:
10 x two coach 171/7
6 x four coach 171/8

The new formations from late 2022 are:
4 x two coach 171/7
12 x three coach 171/8

There is also one of the four Scotrail units left but i will forget about that as i think that is going to EMR at some point soon. The other three are already gone.

So if they went back to their original formations it would seem perfectly possible to run everything as four coach minimum. Marshlink requires just three units all day. Uckfield requires just three units all day. So that is all six of the four coach units. Then you still have all ten of the two coach units available. So those two coach units can be used to extend the peak hour Uckfield services to six coach or eight coach as they are now and also for spare units too. So from what i can see the original formations would work perfectly fine and allow everything to run with four coach minimum.

I am just curious what others think of this and what exactly has been achieved by reforming in to three coach units and reducing capacity? Also is there any chance that Southern will reform them back in to their original two coach and four coach formations again?

I'm pretty sure a thread about this already exists, but in case it has been locked I'll answer anyway.

Southern lost three of the ex-ScotRail units to EMR a year or two ago. The four units came to Southern with three coaches but were reformed so that each of them had 2 or 4 coaches to fit in with existing diagrams. However, the ex-ScotRail units were a liability and were effectively banned from the Marshlink Line due to their tendency to break down, at least according to forum lore. Initially EMR was going to take most of the 171s, but this would leave Southern with barely any diesel units and no suitable replacements existed at the time, or now for that matter. Instead, the transfer was reduced to just the four ex-ScotRail units, but I believe it was cut down to just three of them. The units were reformed to their original configurations and sent up, but this left one with Southern that had three coaches. It is difficult if not impossible to diagram one single unit with an odd length. If I was in charge of the transfer I would have kept one of the ScotRail units unchanged, meaning the 2 or 4 coach configuration would remain. However for whatever reason Southern decided to reform almost the entire fleet.

It is worth noting that for a very long time the Marshlink Line was stuck with two-coach trains. This really did cause constant overcrowding, but from my experience four coaches was simply too much and the trains were hauling fresh air. It isn't worth wasting four coach trains on the Marshlink Line especially now that the trains aren't used on Ashford to Brighton fast services. Between Eastbourne and Bexhill the trains do empty out quite a bit. With a mostly 3-coach fleet, not only does this allow for more consistency and flexibility, it offers a (mostly) permanent capacity increase on the Marshlink Line. I've never been on the Uckfield Line so I don't know how the change has affected it, but I doubt it's as major as you say.

If money was no object and I was in charge of Southern, I would reform the units back to their original configurations, but I'd also get more Turbostars from other operators and keep them as 3 coaches. I'd put all the three coach ones on the Marshlink and the 2 and 4 coach units on the Uckfield Line, with at least one train of each length available as backup at any given time. Really Southern shouldn't have lost any 171s, as EMR's need for them probably wouldn't have been as bad if they got the franchise now - there's about to be quite a few 158s without a home courtesy of Transport For Wales.

 

[OneOfThe48]

I also believe that Southern are now no longer allowed to operate 4 car services on the Marshlink due to problems with some level crossings.

So 3 car trains are the longest the services can be, and its better to have a 3 car running it than a 2 car.