Southern services to Charing Cross

[MatthewRead]

When did Southern services last run to Charing Cross?

 

[Busaholic]

I'm no expert on this, but December 2009 rings a bell.

 

[LA50041]

I'm no expert on this, but December 2009 rings a bell.

Indeed it was Dec 2009 timetable change.
Lucky for me I moved from Forest Hill to Se land about 6 months prior, but I recall the Sydenham set did a mock funeral at Charing x to mark the occasion

 

[MatthewRead]

How come they stopped serving Charing Cross?

 

[GatwickDepress]

http://www.eastlondonlines.co.uk/2009/12/funeral-for-last-direct-train-to-charing-cross/

Last Saturday commuters marched through Charing Cross station laden with an empty coffin to mark the end of Southern railway’s Charing Cross service.

The protesters, many dressed in funereal black, had travelled into the West End on the last direct Sydenham to Charing Cross train.

From here on Southern services will terminate at London Bridge, forcing commuters who board at Brockley, New Cross Gate, Honor Oak Park, Sydenham and Forest Hill to change trains for Charing Cross.

Commuters opposed to the cut argue Southern’s Charing Cross service was vital to residents of southeast London, a claim supported by figures from the Office of Rail Regulation which show nearly 11 million people used that stretch of line in the 2007/8 financial year.

Dan Woods, 31, played the accordian during Saturday’s memorial. He said: “The train service has been getting increasingly worse and increasingly crowded. Now I take my bike into town. They’re doing a great job of promoting cycling by making the train service worse.”

His partner, Amy Ip, 30, added: “We’re both actors. If we’re working in town, we depend on the Charing Cross service, especially at night.”

The weekend’s protest was organisd (sic) by a collection of Lewisham civic groups angry at the service cuts. A petition for their campaign NoToTrainCuts has attracted 3,000 signatures so far.

Southern’s Charing Cross service was axed to make way for Britain’s fastest commuter train, SouthEastern’s Javelin, which shuttles between London and Kent at 140mph and began full service on Saturday.

Despite the cessation of the Southern service campaigners do not believe the battle is lost. Barry Milton, Chair of the Sydenham Society, said: “We believe we can still get the service resurrected.

“We’re trying to get the mayor of Lewisham and our MPs to go to the Department of Transport. If they want to get themselves reelected they need to get in and make them change their minds.”

Southern also plans to cut the number of trains traveling to London Bridge in the afternoons and evenings from six an hour to four to allow for the East London Line overground service due in May 2010. The ELL will run eight trains an hour.

A Transport for London (TfL) spokesman said: “TfL is not cutting any services. We are in fact extending the East London Line and it is because of this Southern has decided it can afford to cut their trains as fewer people will be using them.”

Mr Milton disagreed: “We love the East London Line, it’s the best thing to happen to us for years, but it’s only going to serve 30 per cent of commuters. We believe the core service must be retained.”

Southern say the cuts are out of their hands.

How come they stopped serving Charing Cross?

I vaguely remember Southern officially stating it was due to changes in Southeastern's 2010 timetable... but 2009 is is hazy.

 

[swt class 450]

Where did the London Charing Cross services go to and from? Was it mainly just Greater London suburban services or were there longer distance services to Surrey and Sussex as well?

 

[yorksrob]

Where did the London Charing Cross services go to and from? Was it mainly just Greater London suburban services or were there longer distance services to Surrey and Sussex as well?

For most of the 20th century they went to the old South Eastern Railway outposts of Caterham and Tattenham Corner. I think there were also some to Reigate, although I'm not sure when they stopped.

 

[30907]

For most of the 20th century they went to the old South Eastern Railway outposts of Caterham and Tattenham Corner. I think there were also some to Reigate, although I'm not sure when they stopped.

From electrification in the 20s, the Cats and Tats were off peak only (and for many years fast to Norwood Jn). They were also cut back to London Bridge at the first sign of trouble.
ISTR Reigate was a late variation (did it last to the end - I rather lost track of the routing changes on Central?)

 

[yorksrob]

From electrification in the 20s, the Cats and Tats were off peak only (and for many years fast to Norwood Jn). They were also cut back to London Bridge at the first sign of trouble.
ISTR Reigate was a late variation (did it last to the end - I rather lost track of the routing changes on Central?)

I remember Caterham services being announced at Charing X in the 90's. I never went there because it was all weird slidey-door things on that route by that time.

 

[swt_passenger]

How come they stopped serving Charing Cross?

They needed the paths for Southeastern services into Charing Cross which were seen as more useful. At around the same time the number of paths through the Sydenham corridor for Southern was seriously reduced by the transfer of 8 tph to the ELL.

So basically they were squeezed out by more important routes. There's no possibility whatsoever of any reinstatement because the KO2 Thameslink service pattern require segregation of flows east of London Bridge.

One of the few previous threads is here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=114979

 

[Jimini]

I think I can remember Saturday services from Carshalton Beeches via. West Croydon that ran through to Charing X too, maybe back in 2002 or so?

 

[Barn]

Where did the London Charing Cross services go to and from? Was it mainly just Greater London suburban services or were there longer distance services to Surrey and Sussex as well?

Way back in the day, before the Reading to Waterloo line opened, weren't there trains from Reading to Charing Cross via Guildford and Redhill?

 

[tsr]

Way back in the day, before the Reading to Waterloo line opened, weren't there trains from Reading to Charing Cross via Guildford and Redhill?

Correct!

 

[MichaelAMW]

From electrification in the 20s, the Cats and Tats were off peak only (and for many years fast to Norwood Jn). They were also cut back to London Bridge at the first sign of trouble.
ISTR Reigate was a late variation (did it last to the end - I rather lost track of the routing changes on Central?)

That was more or less the point I was going to make, in order to ask why the quoted article talked about commuters carrying a coffin etc - at the normal times they would have travelled the Charing Cross services weren't running anyway.

I lived near Brockley station for a few years 2001 - 2002 and the through service off peak was certainly useful. At night it was Caterham and Tattenham Corner, splitting at Purley, so a usefully long 8-car set. From May 2001 (ish) however the Tattenham Corner part was diverted to Victoria at night and an additional half-hourly service via Brockley started from London Bridge. Trouble was, the Caterham went down to 4 cars so you ended up with the same number of seats going to Brockley etc but only half the number from Charing Cross, which resulted in people being left behind at times. Meanwhile, the new London Bridge train ran half empty because people mainly go out in the West End and not the City...

 

[30907]

Correct!

Though to be pedantic, in those far off days London Bridge would have been the SER terminus .

 

[LLivery]

I do miss the direct trains, both to Charing Cross and Guildford. Southern services just have got worse and worse for us on the Sydenham corridor and is only going to get worse next year.

 

[RichJF]

I seem to recall when I was younger & went to school by train that there was a Charing X - Redhill service in the early evening peak that I caught a few times (2001/02). I remember it being a 455.

 

[Ianno87]

Where did the London Charing Cross services go to and from? Was it mainly just Greater London suburban services or were there longer distance services to Surrey and Sussex as well?

Immediately before withdrawal, it was Reigate/Tonbridge during Monday-Saturday daytimes, and Caterham late evenings and Sundays.

 

[Ianno87]

I do miss the direct trains, both to Charing Cross and Guildford. Southern services just have got worse and worse for us on the Sydenham corridor and is only going to get worse next year.

Conveniently ignoring the 8tph you get on the East London Line as well these days. Can't have everything.

 

[LLivery]

Conveniently ignoring the 8tph you get on the East London Line as well these days. Can't have everything.

Wasn't ignoring LO at all. Thats why I said "Southern service". The East London Line is struggling at peaks, we need a better Southern service not worse. The planned timetable is awful and I'm not going to pretend it isn't.

 

[Busaholic]

Conveniently ignoring the 8tph you get on the East London Line as well these days. Can't have everything.

ELL all very well for those working at Canary Wharf or on the northeastern fringes of the City of London but absolutely no use for accessing the West End or the area between there and the Bank/Cannon Street/Moorgate part of the City.

 

[Deepgreen]

Charing Cross has long been natural SE territory. Southern only reached there for somewhat obscure reasons, and the minimisation of conflicting moves downstream of London Bridge was always going to see their cessation. As the through trains ceased before I started using Redhill regularly, am I right to assume that the Tonbridge/Reigate workings used 455s? I don't recall Southern 377s at Charing Cross.

Until the 1960s (I think) there were direct (steam) trains from London Bridge to Reading.

 

[Deepgreen]

ELL all very well for those working at Canary Wharf or on the northeastern fringes of the City of London but absolutely no use for accessing the West End or the area between there and the Bank/Cannon Street/Moorgate part of the City.

Indeed, but the Canary Wharf/East London area has become a significant destination which has required transport links accordingly. The service's high usage is testament to the demand.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Charing Cross has long been natural SE territory. Southern only reached there for somewhat obscure reasons, and the minimisation of conflicting moves downstream of London Bridge was always going to see their cessation. As the through trains ceased before I started using Redhill regularly, am I right to assume that the Tonbridge/Reigate workings used 455s? I don't recall Southern 377s at Charing Cross.

Until the 1960s (I think) there were direct (steam) trains from London Bridge to Reading.

It was only the Reigate (and Caterham) services that ran through to Charing Cross,
and they were generally 455's or 456's.
It was on a 20 minute frequency during the daytime (2 to Caterham and 1 to Reigate).

 

[Deepgreen]

I do miss the direct trains, both to Charing Cross and Guildford. Southern services just have got worse and worse for us on the Sydenham corridor and is only going to get worse next year.

You should get there earlier then (sorry; couldn't resist!).

 

[Deepgreen]

It was only the Reigate (and Caterham) services that ran through to Charing Cross,
and they were generally 455's or 456's.
It was on a 20 minute frequency during the daytime (2 to Caterham and 1 to Reigate).

Thanks. I queried it as I thought I had read on another thread that 455s had never been rostered south of Purley on the main line, except for the overnight berthing at Redhill.

 

[Sunset route]

Thanks. I queried it as I thought I had read on another thread that 455s had never been rostered south of Purley on the main line, except for the overnight berthing at Redhill.

There has not been a Reigate to Charing Cross service since at least before 2001. I was was learning Redhill panel then and there were no through workings, in fact most of the electric service on those days were to and from Tonbridge or portion workings from London Victoria/Bridge during the peaks.

The 455 berths at Three Bridges Back Road, now that the GPO dock and associated pointwork has been decommissioned.

 

[Deepgreen]

There has not been a Reigate to Charing Cross service since at least before 2001. I was was learning Redhill panel then and there were no through workings, in fact most of the electric service on those days were to and from Tonbridge or portion workings from London Victoria/Bridge during the peaks.

The 455 berths at Three Bridges Back Road, now that the GPO dock and associated pointwork has been decommissioned.

Thanks. I did wonder if the dock road was now OOU. Ironically, the platform edge was repaired (long sections cut out and re-surfaced) a few weeks ago!

 

[Busaholic]

Indeed, but the Canary Wharf/East London area has become a significant destination which has required transport links accordingly. The service's high usage is testament to the demand.

Absolutely, and it's why house prices in Brockley increased more overall than in any other part of London in the year prior to its introduction. However, I do remember the (broken) promises that were made about the continuation of the same level of service from local stations to London Bridge - I wasn't a member of this forum then, but I imagine that there was some scepticism on here about that claim, for pathing reasons apart from anything else.

 

[30907]

Charing Cross has long been natural SE territory. Southern only reached there for somewhat obscure reasons, and the minimisation of conflicting moves downstream of London Bridge was always going to see their cessation.

Until the 1960s (I think) there were direct (steam) trains from London Bridge to Reading.

Caterham and Tottenham Corner were SER lines (so, for that matter, was Reading-Tonbridge), which accounts for the continuation of services. The SR always considered them Central Section routes and that continued into privatisation.

There was just one LBG-RDG, the 5.25pm, and no Up working. It was replaced by an EMU to Reigate plus steam connection in 1963 or so.