Specific booked local train?

[Backroom_boy]

I've an advanced single LNER ticket 08.17 Mytholmroyd to King's Cross.

The 08.17 Northern service is running 15 mins late meaning I would have missed the 09.15 LNER Leeds service so just hopped on the previous 07.53 northern service.

Conductor on the Northern service charged me for a new ticket to Leeds as it wasn't the booked train.

I've never known connecting local trains to be particular about the booked train or not as long as you had a ticket for the route. Is this a new policy or have I been really lucky all these years?

 

[Snow1964]

It's bit of a weird one because if you had missed the connection you could have got hefty rebate through delay repay (which would have been based on arrival time at final station Kings Cross)

You have effectively been penalised for being proactive and saving them delay repay. But rules are rules and advances on on specific trains only, although in my experience most staff on local trains don't care unless you travel at peak times on off peak ticket as no financial loss, or in your case reduce financial loss as saved delay repay.

Although it was running (very late) the 08:17 wasn't cancelled although in practical terms for your connection it wasn't running. I think conductor has been rather zealous here, but others will no doubt give a view.

 

[crablab]

I think this is worth a complaint (or perhaps a 'strongly worded email') to Northern. You've done the right thing by paying the amount requested and taking the matter up afterwards.

From the terms and conditions of an Advance ticket:

5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

You could point out to them that you've sought to minimise the overall delay to your journey, and had you not fortuitously noticed that your booked service was running severely late, not only would you have been delayed and inconvenienced but you'd have been claiming delay repay from them!
As it is, you've been inconvenienced by them anyway (having to get up earlier and rush to the station!) and they're now charging you for the privilege!

It's a shame you weren't able to seek permission from a member of staff beforehand. Maybe the station was unstaffed. You might want to refer to this.

 

[Hadders]

This is really poor service from Northern and is a demonstration of why the rail industry has such a poor reputation with the public.

Unfortunately many Northern trains are now reservable so they can offer their own Advance tickets (which is ridiculous on short journeys but that's for another thread). An unintended consequence of this is where Northern is a local connecting train into a long distance train the Northern train is now 'booked train only'.

You could've caught the late running 08:17 which would've caused you to miss you connection at Leeds. You would be entitled to travel ont he next train and claim Delay Repay from Northern. By choosing to minimise the delay you've ended up having to buy a new ticket to Leeds (you were quite fortunate that you didn't come across someone who wanted to take your details and report you for fare evasion and travelling on the wrong train).

I would complain to Northern about what happened, and ask them what you are supposed to do in these circumstances. Ask them to refund the cost of the additional ticket you had to buy.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've an advanced single LNER ticket 08.17 Mytholmroyd to King's Cross.

The 08.17 Northern service is running 15 mins late meaning I would have missed the 09.15 LNER Leeds service so just hopped on the previous 07.53 northern service.

Conductor on the Northern service charged me for a new ticket to Leeds as it wasn't the booked train.

I've never known connecting local trains to be particular about the booked train or not as long as you had a ticket for the route. Is this a new policy or have I been really lucky all these years?

What a miserable level of customer service shown by the guard.

Pathetic.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Unfortunately many Northern trains are now reservable so they can offer their own Advance tickets (which is ridiculous on short journeys but that's for another thread). An unintended consequence of this is where Northern is a local connecting train into a long distance train the Northern train is now 'booked train only'.

Ah so this is a recent ish thing? It really is contrary to how I've travelled for decades.

(you were quite fortunate that you didn't come across someone who wanted to take your details and report you for fare evasion and travelling on the wrong train).

Sort of what the conductor/guard said when they sold me a £7 ticket. "If revenue protection was on the train you could have had a £100 penalty fare."

What a miserable level of customer service shown by the guard.

Pathetic.

See above. Think it's the system not the individual.

 

[AlterEgo]

See above. Think it's the system not the individual.

It's both. Guards aren't meant to be Judge Dredd, they are entitled to use their discretion, and ought to have done so here. You were trying to arrive on time and were certainly to be delayed because of the guard's own company's trains being cancelled, and indeed saving their employer a delay repay claim.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Whilst no individual train was cancelled, the OP`s booked service effectively was. So he was entitled to use his ticket as he did. There is a principle of law that an aggrieved party should try to mitigate his loss. This the OP did.

Northern breached the contract to convey the OP to his London connection. He could have asked them for advice, had there been an opportunity. I`m confident that, at New Pudsey, the staff would have told him to get the earlier train and given him a slip of paper confirming this. But Mytholmroyd is unstaffed. So the OP did, of his own initiative, what any reasonable member of railway staff would have advised.

It is indeed possible that an RPI would have levied a penalty fare or a report for prosecution. This could have dragged on for months and months. A minority of railway staff seem to think that service disruption affords them an opportunity further to exploit passengers who are already victims of the railway`s failing.

The OP needs to take this up with the managing director of Northern. He wants refund of the wrongly collected fare plus a statement as to what passengers are entitled or expected to do in these circumstances.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah so this is a recent ish thing? It really is contrary to how I've travelled for decades.

I can't say exactly how it would have worked on the eastern side of the Pennines. But western side pre-mobile tickets and pre-Avanti if you purchased an Advance for Northwich to London (or similar) you would have got two orange tickets. One saying it was an Advance ticket for Northwich to London with a restriction of booked VTWC train + connections only, and one with a specific reservation for a Virgin service. Conductors or other inspectors working for Northern would have only been interested in the date on the Advance ticket. Any problem was normally if your connecting train was late and someone working for Virgin decided you were on the wrong train.

Now, even if you request paper tickets, you get a 'reservation' for each section. If I select a Northwich to London option that includes 2 changes I'd end up with 3 'reservations' plus the ticket, even if only the Avanti one contains a seat reservation.

 

[Snow1964]

Whilst no individual train was cancelled, the OP`s booked service effectively was. So he was entitled to use his ticket as he did. There is a principle of law that an aggrieved party should try to mitigate his loss. This the OP did.

Northern breached the contract to convey the OP to his London connection. He could have asked them for advice, had there been an opportunity. I`m confident that, at New Pudsey, the staff would have told him to get the earlier train and given him a slip of paper confirming this. But Mytholmroyd is unstaffed. So the OP did, of his own initiative, what any reasonable member of railway staff would have advised.

If the staff at New Pudsey would have issued slip confirming, but Op got on at different station and first member of staff available was conductor then why the difference. Not fair on a customer to have different result because Northern haven chosen not to staff Mytholmroyd

To me this needs policy clearly explained by Northern's MD or Executive team. And policy needs to be consistent if get on at whichever Northern station you commence journey, with or without staff member.

At the moment we have situation where Northern charged £7 extra, but might have been liable for many times that in delay repay had Op not rushed to earlier train due to Northern failing to run the service early enough for a connection. It appears they would prefer you to be late and Northern pay out more.

 

[northwichcat]

At the moment we have situation where Northern charged £7 extra, but might have been liable for many times that in delay repay had Op not rushed to earlier train due to Northern failing to run the service early enough for a connection. It appears they would prefer you to be late and Northern pay out more.

If the guard scanned the ticket and then sold a £7 ticket, does that mean he got commission on two tickets? That could be the underlying issue, the guard gains from selling a new ticket but doesn't lose out from Delay Repay. If the guards got bonuses for good customer service and doing their best to keep trains punctual, it might be a different matter. There does seem to be small number of Northern guards who are happy to delay releasing the doors in order to sell or scan additional tickets.

 

[Merseysider]

Stick in a complaint - it's poor customer service at the very least. You may get a free Northern ticket for your trouble.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

There is an ATOC code of practice which assures passengers that they will not be penalised in the event of disruption.

The problem seems to be that the guard has incomplete knowledge of the rules, no concern whatever for customer service and an instinct to go for the commission on ticket sale. Either that or he/ she derives some kind of satisfaction from catching a passenger in technical breach of his/ her incorrect version of the rules. And then enjoys the ultimate delight of saying that it would have been worse if a RPI had been on board.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I've always thought that the reservation requirement for connecting TOC legs should be dropped. I asked RDG about it and unfortunately they didn't agree

 

[Hadders]

I've always thought that the reservation requirement for connecting TOC legs should be dropped. I asked RDG about it and unfortunately they didn't agree

Did RDG say what should happen in this situation?

Should someone be required to delay their journey, or do they risk being penalised if they are pragmatic and take an earlier connecting train so that they minimise their delay?

 

[northwichcat]

I've always thought that the reservation requirement for connecting TOC legs should be dropped. I asked RDG about it and unfortunately they didn't agree

Logically a different connecting train should only be an issue if you're making a journey that involves two long distance trains (that both have seat reservations) or you're making the local connection excessively early to break your journey (when it's not permitted).

 

[Hadders]

Or you see your local connecting train is cancelled and take an earlier one!

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Did RDG say what should happen in this situation?

No, just that all reservable legs should be reserved, whether the main or connecting TOC for that fare. The question was because a fare had been sold with a connecting TOC reservation but nothing on the main one, between SWR and GA I think. Asking to clarify the rules - in this case all or main - sometimes gives the wrong answer

Should someone be required to delay their journey, or do they risk being penalised if they are pragmatic and take an earlier connecting train so that they minimise their delay?

I suppose everyone is content with delaying the passenger and paying out more. It makes no sense. Although I suppose we could start a debate on the train about the definition of "next". I'd be very resistant to paying again in these circumstances!

 

[northwichcat]

Or you see your local connecting train is cancelled and take an earlier one!

Just thinking of this Northern actually advise passengers to do just that. However, I'm not sure if they've ever said in response to a delayed service, opposed to a cancelled one.

Matt @northernassist hi our 16:51 BPN to SOT via MAN is already cancelled. Our ticket is an advance. Do you know our options please as the 17:51 is too late for us.

Northern Hi there, sorry to hear that. Your ticket will be valid on the service before or after this one, alternatively you can apply for a full refund. ^ELT

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/1700777443382968348

 

[jamiearmley]

It's a massive problem, and not just on Northern. With itineraries being generated with minimum connection times, you often see people jumping off the 'big train' and running for the next connection shown on the departure board, without having paid attention to the exact connection they should be on.

So for example, a KGX SKI advance will often show a timetabled arrival into Leeds at xx:55, with the passenger then being booked onto the xx:26 from LDS to SKI. Due to timetable padding, if the train runs to schedule it often arrives early : say at xx:52. Passengers then run- and I mean run- across the station to the xx:56, which is not their booked train. Their ticket is scanned, and it comes up as INVALID. We already know what happens next.

Bring back the days of only the big train being reserved, and let's do away with connecting legs being booked train only. The current situation harms the passenger, causes conflict, and damages the industry.

I am a big believer in the idea that if you want flexibility, you buy a flexible ticket : and that cheap advances are rightly totally inflexible.

However, and this is important - each situation is different.

Had I been your train conductor, I would have ascertained why you were travelling early, verified the information, and then checked to make sure that you would be ok and didn't need any more assistance to make your journey. I would have apologised for the disruption, and given praise for your proactive response to the situation and wished you a pleasant journey.

Why you were treated differently to the way I would have done, I can't answer. I can only apologise and support the idea posted by others that a complaint is in order.

I hope your future experiences are better ones!

 

[Hadders]

No, just that all reservable legs should be reserved, whether the main or connecting TOC for that fare. The question was because a fare had been sold with a connecting TOC reservation but nothing on the main one, between SWR and GA I think. Asking to clarify the rules - in this case all or main - sometimes gives the wrong answer


I suppose everyone is content with delaying the passenger and paying out more. It makes no sense. Although I suppose we could start a debate on the train about the definition of "next". I'd be very resistant to paying again in these circumstances!

The passenger won’t be content with the delay, even if they do get compensated.

Often passengers just want to their destination on time as they have an event, meeting etc. It seems RDG don’t always understand this.

 

[anothertyke]

It's a massive problem, and not just on Northern. With itineraries being generated with minimum connection times, you often see people jumping off the 'big train' and running for the next connection shown on the departure board, without having paid attention to the exact connection they should be on.

So for example, a KGX SKI advance will often show a timetabled arrival into Leeds at xx:55, with the passenger then being booked onto the xx:26 from LDS to SKI. Due to timetable padding, if the train runs to schedule it often arrives early : say at xx:52. Passengers then run- and I mean run- across the station to the xx:56, which is not their booked train. Their ticket is scanned, and it comes up as INVALID. We already know what happens next.

Bring back the days of only the big train being reserved, and let's do away with connecting legs being booked train only. The current situation harms the passenger, causes conflict, and damages the industry.

I am a big believer in the idea that if you want flexibility, you buy a flexible ticket : and that cheap advances are rightly totally inflexible.

However, and this is important - each situation is different.

Had I been your train conductor, I would have ascertained why you were travelling early, verified the information, and then checked to make sure that you would be ok and didn't need any more assistance to make your journey. I would have apologised for the disruption, and given praise for your proactive response to the situation and wished you a pleasant journey.

Why you were treated differently to the way I would have done, I can't answer. I can only apologise and support the idea posted by others that a complaint is in order.

I hope your future experiences are better ones!

My perspective, being one of the runners, is slightly different. Most of the KGX-LDS trains are due in at 15 or 45 past. Some of them get stuck at Sandal or more annoyingly at Wortley Jn. So then they arrive at xx22 or 52. Naturally you are then going to see runners for the Skipton and Harrogate locals they are booked on. I have experienced them being flagged off right time many a time. Particularly annoying when the Harrogate service is hourly in the evenings.

So, as well as what you say, bring back a little bit of discretion re when a train can be held and when there are good valid reasons it just can't.

totally agree that advance fares for specific local trains is a silly idea. Where's the evidence it's revenue positive for Northern?

 

[jamiearmley]

My perspective, being one of the runners, is slightly different. Most of the KGX-LDS trains are due in at 15 or 45 past. Some of them get stuck at Sandal or more annoyingly at Wortley Jn. So then they arrive at xx22 or 52. Naturally you are then going to see runners for the Skipton and Harrogate locals they are booked on. I have experienced them being flagged off right time many a time. Particularly annoying when the Harrogate service is hourly in the evenings.

So, as well as what you say, bring back a little bit of discretion re when a train can be held and when there are good valid reasons it just can't.

totally agree that advance fares for specific local trains is a silly idea. Where's the evidence it's revenue positive for Northern?

Totally agree re holding trains. Train crew can, and do, 'hold' their own service when they can see a connecting train pulling in - without any formal instruction , just using common sense.
It's easy enough to do at, for example, Halifax, or Wakefield kirkgate.

Not as easy as a large station like Leeds, where the dispatch is controlled by others - although I refuse to depart if I see people running towards my train for safety reasons.

I would like to see it formalised : train guard A is asked by a passenger if a connection can be held, he contacts control, who issue the instruction to the crew of train B. It's what BR used to do, and they were hardly feted for their customer service : it was just the right thing to do.

 

[DelW]

The most bizarre aspect is that the Northern conductor's beef was that the OP wasn't on his booked train. Yet if the OP had waited for his (delayed) booked Northern train, he'd have been on the wrong LNER train - which would have been worse for the passenger (arriving late), worse for LNER (passenger on a different train than reserved), and worse for Northern (paying out delay repay).

In what weird world did the conductor think that any of that would have been a good outcome? Did they actually *think* at all? And that's apart from the wholly unjustified threat about £100 penalties when it's the TOC that's at fault.

 

[anothertyke]

Indeed. Another point is that for the average punter, if the computer offers you the 0817 from Mytholmroyd for the 0915 from Leeds to KX, you take it. Saying ' no, I won't take the risk and will book on the one before' is not all that easy to do.

 

[jamiearmley]

The most bizarre aspect is that the Northern conductor's beef was that the OP wasn't on his booked train. Yet if the OP had waited for his (delayed) booked Northern train, he'd have been on the wrong LNER train - which would have been worse for the passenger (arriving late), worse for LNER (passenger on a different train than reserved), and worse for Northern (paying out delay repay).

In what weird world did the conductor think that any of that would have been a good outcome? Did they actually *think* at all? And that's apart from the wholly unjustified threat about £100 penalties when it's the TOC that's at fault.

Completely agree. Unreservedly.

 

[trainophile]

I wonder if it was the same conductor who took over at Bradford Interchange on my Leeds>Chester train last Thursday afternoon. He took over from a really nice friendly guard who was entertaining us with his train shaped hole punch, and went through the train like the Gestapo, scrutinising everyone's tickets even those already punched, and seemingly determined to find a reason to reject them.

One poor lady was telling him repeatedly that she had checked before boarding with the then guard, who had authorised her to get that train as otherwise she would miss her connection as her booked train was running late. He spent about 10 minutes grilling her before reluctantly moving on to harass the next person with a valid ticket. I don't like to be unkind but there's nothing nice I can say about his unnecessarily aggressive attitude. For balance, every other Northern conductor I had dealings with in my three day holiday, involving about a dozen trains, was absolutely fine.

 

[L401CJF]

Relevant but not - I worked 2 trains to/from Manchester yesterday, 1 where the previous Northern was cancelled, and 1 where the following Northern service was cancelled. As a result, lots of Northern Only and Northern Advance tickets onboard. Platform staff at Piccadilly advising passengers over the tannoy that the XX.XX Northern service is cancelled and to board my train instead.

No official ticket acceptance was in place, perhaps I should have charged every one of them and earnt some decent commission? No.

On the subject of " & connections" tickets - we scan a lot of these such as Avanti/Connections (eg Chester to Crewe on TFW then Avanti to Euston or similar). Often you'll scan and it'll say not valid, but when you check the passengers itinerary it is actually the booked train and the machine doesn't seem to be clever enough to know.

I'll often advise people if they're travelling at the wrong time or wrong route and point it out "don't do it again", but very rare I actually charge somebody for a new ticket. Not worth the hassle! Half the time the response is "previous train cancelled/late/missed connection". The way I see it if they've already had their plans messed around just leave them be and get them where they want to go, and advise them to claim delay repay!

 

[WAB]

I will never understand why staff on the ground feel the need to behave in such an anti-customer manner. Ultimately, the managers are to blame for creating a culture where irrelevant and nit-picking issues with tickets are blown out of all proportion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One poor lady was telling him repeatedly that she had checked before boarding with the then guard, who had authorised her to get that train as otherwise she would miss her connection as her booked train was running late. He spent about 10 minutes grilling her before reluctantly moving on to harass the next person with a valid ticket. I don't like to be unkind but there's nothing nice I can say about his unnecessarily aggressive attitude. For balance, every other Northern conductor I had dealings with in my three day holiday, involving about a dozen trains, was absolutely fine.

This is why it's very, very important that any member of staff allowing out of course ticket use endorses the ticket. This is easier still with e-tickets.