St. Pancras International Platform 5

[gazr]

I have been playing about with OTT seeing if there was by off-chance any trains departing platform 5 to the East Midlands side as Quail makes it look like trains can be border either side?. Anyhow... From my limited knowledge of OTT at present, it looks to me that this platform is OOU from Easter onwards. I am left wondering why that is?

My search was: TIPLOC=STPANCI and PLATFORM=5.

My initial search yielded no results.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have been playing about with OTT seeing if there was by off-chance any trains departing platform 5 to the East Midlands side as Quail makes it look like trains can be border either side?. Anyhow... From my limited knowledge of OTT at present, it looks to me that this platform is OOU from Easter onwards. I am left wondering why that is?

My search was: TIPLOC=STPANCI and PLATFORM=5.

My initial search yielded no results.

IIRC from previous discussions the link between P5 and the 'Midland' is treated as an un-signalled maintenance siding and only available during possessions. That would suggest if there are movements planned you'll not see them in an online resource.

 

[MarkyT]

IIRC from previous discussions the link between P5 and the 'Midland' is treated as an un-signalled maintenance siding and only available during possessions. That would suggest if there are movements planned you'll not see them in an online resource.

The connection IS properly signalled in and out from a control and interlocking point of view although the functions are most definitely 'collared' out of use if not fully disconnected. In fact you can get to any of the long international platforms from the Midland, as you can from the Eastern and the North London Line, all the way across to platform 10 if neccessary. There is clearly no need to do this however in regular traffic except for special engineering workings and departmental movements, and such movements have to be carried out under special instructions because St Pancras is fitted with the French KVB warning system not UK AWS and TPWS. The connections were provided for 'North of London' Eurostars which never actually ran in anger through these connections. Class 373 Eurostars of both sub-types were fitted with British warning systems originally but the equipment was removed, as was the 3rd rail DC pickup gear, once they no longer needed to run over classic lines in Kent. I believe some class 92 freight locomotives may retain both French and British warning systems, so these might be the only traction that could (theoreticaly) run 'normally' through the connnections. I think there were a few AWS magnets provided in the new terminal layout for trains starting from the international platforms going towards the UK main lines, after having reversed from HS1 under KVB/TVM430 supervision (and vice versa) but I doubt any TPWS loops were ever provided and the AWS track equipment may also have been removed now. All a bit of a white elephant I'm afraid!

 

[EM2]

Trains can't be boarded either side on platform 5. The side opposite the Eurostar platform is occupied by the champagne bar, and north of that there is a glass wall and then a fence.
I have never seen a service (even ECS) go onto the MML from p. 5.

 

[gazr]

Thanks for your detailed replies so quickly. However, I'm still at a loss why Eurostar seem to be abandoning this platform after Easter. Maybe something to do with DB wanting to run services??

 

[westcoaster]

Where is it you are getting info p5 will not be used.

 

[OxtedL]

They are basing it on the advanced schedule search on Open Train Times

If you pick a random day after Easter at the moment you see something like this for Eurostar at St Pancras (I'm using Real Time Trains for convenience). Everything is using platform 10.

Clearly this isn't possible - what it means is that platforming hasn't been done or hasn't been added to the schedules yet. I don't think it has any implications for platform 5.

 

[gazr]

They are basing it on the advanced schedule search on Open Train Times

If you pick a random day after Easter at the moment you see something like this for Eurostar at St Pancras (I'm using Real Time Trains for convenience). Everything is using platform 10.

Clearly this isn't possible - what it means is that platforming hasn't been done or hasn't been added to the schedules yet. I don't think it has any implications for platform 5.

OK, this makes sense. It did seem strange from looking on OTT... Didn't think to check RTT. Maybe the little bit of track that sees no use can be something the BLS can get done?

 

[yorksrob]

It would be nice to think that an IC125 might one day make its way back into the trainshed before withdrawal from the MML. I'd like to be on that!

 

[D1009]

Maybe the little bit of track that sees no use can be something the BLS can get done?

I wouldn't be surprised if they've already tried.:roll:

 

[RichmondCommu]

Thanks for your detailed replies so quickly. However, I'm still at a loss why Eurostar seem to be abandoning this platform after Easter. Maybe something to do with DB wanting to run services??

I have my doubts as to whether DB will ever run services to London as safety wise there is now nothing to stop them.

 

[MarkyT]

I have my doubts as to whether DB will ever run services to London as safety wise there is now nothing to stop them.

The problem is security and immigration checks for inbound services to the UK completely destroying the business case by extending journey times. For it's leisure oriented South of France service Eurostar carries out these checks by forcing all its 'customers' off the train and through screening at Lille, taking a whole extra hour in the process. Where a service is attempting to compete with air from northern Europe, such time wasting nonsense would be an absolute killer to attracting any business travel, and even for leisure trips it's (shall we say diplomatically) rather less than customer friendly as they're likely to be encumbered with more luggage which today they they must lug around Lille station, then back to the exact same seat they were just sitting in. Outbound from UK it's no problem as everyone and their luggage is pre-screened at there embarkation station. Following the Thalys terror incident, the mooted screening of passenger boarding international HS services WITHIN mainland Europe offers some small hope of more destinations being served to and from the UK. If selected continental stations have to be adapted for this anyway, the operators could then, like airlines, become liable for ensuring UK immigration papers were in order for services heading our way without there being additional UK border force outposts all over Europe, which have been ruled out of the question apparently. Rail service operators would never do all that just for UK services, which might amount to (say) 4 trains a day from Frankfurt/Koeln or Amsterdam but if the security measures had to be provided anyway for the more frequent Thalys or ICE mainland international routes then suddenly it could become more viable to provide for UK routes too.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

The problem is security and immigration checks for inbound services to the UK completely destroying the business case by extending journey times. For it's leisure oriented South of France service Eurostar carries out these checks by forcing all its 'customers' off the train and through screening at Lille, taking a whole extra hour in the process. Where a service is attempting to compete with air from northern Europe, such time wasting nonsense would be an absolute killer to attracting any business travel, and even for leisure trips it's (shall we say diplomatically) rather less than customer friendly as they're likely to be encumbered with more luggage which today they they must lug around Lille station, then back to the exact same seat they were just sitting in. Outbound from UK it's no problem as everyone and their luggage is pre-screened at there embarkation station. Following the Thalys terror incident, the mooted screening of passenger boarding international HS services WITHIN mainland Europe offers some small hope of more destinations being served to and from the UK. If selected continental stations have to be adapted for this anyway, the operators could then, like airlines, become liable for ensuring UK immigration papers were in order for services heading our way without there being additional UK border force outposts all over Europe, which have been ruled out of the question apparently. Rail service operators would never do all that just for UK services, which might amount to (say) 4 trains a day from Frankfurt/Koeln or Amsterdam but if the security measures had to be provided anyway for the more frequent Thalys or ICE mainland international routes then suddenly it could become more viable to provide for UK routes too.

On that note, the Paris to Barcelona service does have security checks, so would it be easy to add passport checks (essentially just one or two booths) to Barcelona station to enable direct services to and from London St Pancras International?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

The connection IS properly signalled in and out from a control and interlocking point of view although the functions are most definitely 'collared' out of use if not fully disconnected. In fact you can get to any of the long international platforms from the Midland, as you can from the Eastern and the North London Line, all the way across to platform 10 if neccessary. There is clearly no need to do this however in regular traffic except for special engineering workings and departmental movements, and such movements have to be carried out under special instructions because St Pancras is fitted with the French KVB warning system not UK AWS and TPWS. The connections were provided for 'North of London' Eurostars which never actually ran in anger through these connections. Class 373 Eurostars of both sub-types were fitted with British warning systems originally but the equipment was removed, as was the 3rd rail DC pickup gear, once they no longer needed to run over classic lines in Kent. I believe some class 92 freight locomotives may retain both French and British warning systems, so these might be the only traction that could (theoreticaly) run 'normally' through the connnections. I think there were a few AWS magnets provided in the new terminal layout for trains starting from the international platforms going towards the UK main lines, after having reversed from HS1 under KVB/TVM430 supervision (and vice versa) but I doubt any TPWS loops were ever provided and the AWS track equipment may also have been removed now. All a bit of a white elephant I'm afraid!

If it is not used, why not remove it in favour of British stuff?

 

[MarkyT]

If it is not used, why not remove it in favour of British stuff?

It would be possible to remove the track connections to MML and ECML to save on maintenance and longer term renewals, even the NLL connection if you were willing to physically prevent any engineering or freight traffic ever running that way again, but that wouldn't make any more space available at the station itself for any 'British Stuff', as platform 5 and parts of the throat junctions leading to it are is an intrinsic part of the international terminus, and, notwithstanding the OPs original query, platfrom 5 is used every day for Eurostar trains normally. I don't think anyone would ever seriously consider making the international part of the station any smaller than it is today.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

It would be possible to remove the track connections to MML and ECML to save on maintenance and longer term renewals, even the NLL connection if you were willing to physically prevent any engineering or freight traffic ever running that way again, but that wouldn't make any more space available at the station itself for any 'British Stuff', as platform 5 and parts of the throat junctions leading to it are is an intrinsic part of the international terminus, and, notwithstanding the OPs original query, platfrom 5 is used every day for Eurostar trains normally. I don't think anyone would ever seriously consider making the international part of the station any smaller than it is today.

I apologise - I meant to mean the signalling and safety equipment

 

[MarkyT]

I apologise - I meant to mean the signalling and safety equipment

No problem. Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear either. Technically St Pancras is two separate stations. The Midland side (p1-4) is entirely conventional UK colour light signalling with standard AWS and TPWS. It is controlled from West Hampstead PSB (Power Signal Box). The 'other' (HS1) side is divided into 6 long international platforms (5-10) and and 3 shorter domestics (11-13) and although functionally separate from a passenger and security point of view, the international and domestic HS1 platforms both form part of one station operationally and technically using hybrid UK/French derived interlocking and lineside signalling and French KVB warning equipment in the low speed station area. Once out of the station throat, the lineside signalling hands over to standard French TVM430 cab signalling which is also used in the Channel Tunnel and throughout the French high speed network. HS1 in it's entirety including St Pancras, is supervised by controllers in Network Rail's Ashford IECC (Integrated Electronic Control Centre). As in France, the TVM430 and KVB are part of the same signalling ecosystem. TVM is not suitable for low speed movements and KVB is not appropriate for high speed. A train is always required to initialise on KVB before being handed over to TVM and this occurs automatically at the boundary (for HS1 leaving St Pancras this occurs just as you enter the North London tunnels after passing over the ECML bridge). So it can be seen All HS1 trains in and out of St Pancras remain in 'French mode' throughout as all the trackside equipment is of that type. With no running to or from NR lines from the international station there's no need for any kind of AWS/TPWS overlay, and although notionally a dual fitted train might be able to negotiate the boundaries there is no operational need for this. Contrary to my previous statement I understand 373s have retained AWS/TPWS for working through Ashford platforms, but I understand ETCS or KVB is being fitted (alongside AWS/TPWS) through the appropriate platforms in order that 374s can call there (these new trains definitely haven't got the UK warning systems). It is thus possible that UK systems may be removed entirely from 373s as well once the Ashford work is complete. Eurostar trains of either class cannot work through the MML and ECML connection (and not just for signalling reasons).

Here's a technical paper I found about the signalling at St Pancras including a schematic diagram of the layout:
http://www.atkinsglobal.com/~/media...ignalling-at-the-st-pancras-ctrl-terminal.pdf

Note no TPWS and AWS equipment is shown in the station area itself.

 

[D1009]

I don't think anyone would ever seriously consider making the international part of the station any smaller than it is today.

Not sure about that, given that even on today's timetable there are nearly 3 times as many departures per day from the 4 MML platforms as there are from the 6 International platforms.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

No problem. Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear either. Technically St Pancras is two separate stations. The Midland side (p1-4) is entirely conventional UK colour light signalling with standard AWS and TPWS. It is controlled from West Hampstead PSB (Power Signal Box). The 'other' (HS1) side is divided into 6 long international platforms (5-10) and and 3 shorter domestics (11-13) and although functionally separate from a passenger and security point of view, the international and domestic HS1 platforms both form part of one station operationally and technically using hybrid UK/French derived interlocking and lineside signalling and French KVB warning equipment in the low speed station area. Once out of the station throat, the lineside signalling hands over to standard French TVM430 cab signalling which is also used in the Channel Tunnel and throughout the French high speed network. HS1 in it's entirety including St Pancras, is supervised by controllers in Network Rail's Ashford IECC (Integrated Electronic Control Centre). As in France, the TVM430 and KVB are part of the same signalling ecosystem. TVM is not suitable for low speed movements and KVB is not appropriate for high speed. A train is always required to initialise on KVB before being handed over to TVM and this occurs automatically at the boundary (for HS1 leaving St Pancras this occurs just as you enter the North London tunnels after passing over the ECML bridge). So it can be seen All HS1 trains in and out of St Pancras remain in 'French mode' throughout as all the trackside equipment is of that type. With no running to or from NR lines from the international station there's no need for any kind of AWS/TPWS overlay, and although notionally a dual fitted train might be able to negotiate the boundaries there is no operational need for this. Contrary to my previous statement I understand 373s have retained AWS/TPWS for working through Ashford platforms, but I understand ETCS or KVB is being fitted (alongside AWS/TPWS) through the appropriate platforms in order that 374s can call there (these new trains definitely haven't got the UK warning systems). It is thus possible that UK systems may be removed entirely from 373s as well once the Ashford work is complete. Eurostar trains of either class cannot work through the MML and ECML connection (and not just for signalling reasons).

Here's a technical paper I found about the signalling at St Pancras including a schematic diagram of the layout:
http://www.atkinsglobal.com/~/media...ignalling-at-the-st-pancras-ctrl-terminal.pdf

Note no TPWS and AWS equipment is shown in the station area itself.

Thank you, MarkyT - I was unaware of how it was all signalled - that was a very good read. Also, I never actually knew there was a connection between the UK and "international" sides - even though I use that STP when going to London via Megabus

 

[Railsigns]

Technically St Pancras is two separate stations. The Midland side (p1-4) is entirely conventional UK colour light signalling with standard AWS and TPWS. It is controlled from West Hampstead PSB (Power Signal Box).

Used to be. It is now controlled from Three Bridges ROC.

 

[Mike395]

Used to be. It is now controlled from Three Bridges ROC.

Not yet I don't think - from what I understand Three Bridges only controls signalling from St Pancras LL southwards.

 

[Tomnick]

Not yet I don't think - from what I understand Three Bridges only controls signalling from St Pancras LL southwards.

'Upstairs' has gone into Three Bridges too now, as I understand it (the whole of the former panel 1 in WH?). The rest of the post is still applicable, of course!

 

[MarkyT]

Used to be. It is now controlled from Three Bridges ROC.

'Upstairs' has gone into Three Bridges too now, as I understand it (the whole of the former panel 1 in WH?). The rest of the post is still applicable, of course!

So it appears gents!

From:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...x/london north eastern sectional appendix.pdf

see attached screen captures.

Note: Supplement No 34 05 March 2016
Did this work happen this weekend?
Also boundary with West Hampstead appears to be at Camden Road Tunnels.

 

[MikeWh]

Not sure about that, given that even on today's timetable there are nearly 3 times as many departures per day from the 4 MML platforms as there are from the 6 International platforms.

I imagine there's a lot more work required turning round a 20 car international train than a 12? car inter-city train. Not least the fact that there may well be restrictions on loading/unloading two trains on either side of one island platform at the same time.

 

[gsnedders]

Eurostar trains of either class cannot work through the MML and ECML connection (and not just for signalling reasons).

What reasons stop them? (Obviously 374s can't get beyond the first tunnel, but 373s?)

 

[westcoaster]

So it appears gents!

From:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...x/london north eastern sectional appendix.pdf

see attached screen captures.

Note: Supplement No 34 05 March 2016
Did this work happen this weekend?
Also boundary with West Hampstead appears to be at Camden Road Tunnels.

One signal section south of Kentish town on all lines is the boundary.

 

[MarkyT]

What reasons stop them? (Obviously 374s can't get beyond the first tunnel, but 373s?)

Practically a lack of route clearance paperwork for the class and difficulty finding any driver who would have the relevant route AND traction knowledge! Problems that might complicate achieving that? Length, power requirements, signalling immunity, speed limits on classic infrastructure imposed due to higher axle load. I know NoL sets did work on the ECML out of Kings Cross for a while, but they were shorter sets specifically built for UK classic interworking unlike the 373s now remaining with Eurostar, and as you say 374s simply wouldn't fit, although interestingly it could be actually be a ground shunt signal, a low underbridge girder or platfrom edge that they might first strike rather than the tunnel profile.

 

[D1009]

I imagine there's a lot more work required turning round a 20 car international train than a 12? car inter-city train. Not least the fact that there may well be restrictions on loading/unloading two trains on either side of one island platform at the same time.

Absolutely. That's considering it. I was responding to a point that no-one was seriously considering it.

 

[gsnedders]

Practically a lack of route clearance paperwork for the class and difficulty finding any driver who would have the relevant route AND traction knowledge! Problems that might complicate achieving that? Length, power requirements, signalling immunity, speed limits on classic infrastructure imposed due to higher axle load. I know NoL sets did work on the ECML out of Kings Cross for a while, but they were shorter sets specifically built for UK classic interworking unlike the 373s now remaining with Eurostar, and as you say 374s simply wouldn't fit, although interestingly it could be actually be a ground shunt signal, a low underbridge girder or platfrom edge that they might first strike rather than the tunnel profile.

Right—obviously those practical issues stop it! As far as I was aware, the only technical difference between the 373/1s and 373/2s (i.e., Three Capitals and NoL sets) was the fewer coaches? (Especially given all originally ran over "classic" lines.) As such, power requirements and speed limits would presumably be the same on the ECML as the NoL sets faced. Would length actually pose any issues? (Aren't there freight trains longer on the ECML? Platform length issues could surely be solved with SDO as was used on the ECML before.) What do you mean by "signalling immunity"? Not a phrase I've heard before!

I know they weren't allowed up by the southern end of King Edward Bridge because of gauging issues, so the same would apply here, obviously. (That was found during the class 37 hauled gauging runs in the early 90s.) As far as I'm aware, nothing else was found as a gauging issue?

 

[MarkyT]

What do you mean by "signalling immunity"? Not a phrase I've heard before!

Mostly to do with the effects of traction return current on the safe functioning of signalling equipment (including under any likely fault conditions). Primarily, this concerns track circuits which clearly have a high degree of electrical commonality with the traction system on the running rails. That's nothing like as bad on 25kV AC OHLE as running such high power trains on 3rd rail DC of course where the return currents can be enormous and there are all sorts of harmonics from the substation rectification to consider. There may be certain track circuit types that are completely incompatible with certain types of traction or which can only operate under certain restrictions such as section length limitations. Someone (an expensive consultant) has to look at all these route specific factors and make decisions as to whether any (again expensive!) signalling changes to the infrastructure are required. All that work will have been done for the NoL sets on the ECML which as you said were very similar technically, but a new route acceptance would at the very least have to assess any changes to the configuration of the infrastructure since their previous route acceptance lapsed. Being longer trains with same installed power as the NoLs their performance compared to other trains on the route would be even worse than the NoLs, which were themselves considered fairly sluggish ISTR. That would eat path space significantly on such a busy railway. Lastly whereas SDO can help solve some minor platform length incompatibility it can't solve the fundamental problem of hanging out the of stations blocking junctions, particularly at terminal stations where if you can't get fully inside the starting signal you're totally stuck and will have probably deadlocked the entire station! On the Midland the route acceptance will not have been completed originally anyway as the trains would only have been able to go as far as the wires extended (i.e. Bedford)! On the bright side some modern developments make traction route acceptance rather simpler, notable the wider application of axle counters in place of track circuits.