St Pancras platform 5: from Eurostar to EMR?

[adamedwards]

St Pancras Midland Main Line platforms 1-4 are a significant constraint on East Midlands services. So how feasible is adding platform 5 to the service?

Eurostar trains could be held in the unused international platforms at Stratford. Would this allow the platform to be freeded up?

There would need to be a fence down the platform to segregate it from international services and it would make sense to link it to the existing Midland concourse. Having moved the buffers north, the rest could be infilled with polystyrene blocks to preserve the track and then covered. The overhead wires would need insulation from live cables. A new crossover to change the route to the MML would be needed.
What would that then do for EMR service reliability and flexibility?

 

[Ianno87]

St Pancras Midland Main Line platforms 1-4 are a significant constraint on East Midlands services.

Adding extra platforms for MML use won't make a jot of difference to the number of trains that can be timetabled - that's limited by the interaction between EMR services and Thameslink services using the Fast Lines north of Carlton Road Jn.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

St Pancras Midland Main Line platforms 1-4 are a significant constraint on East Midlands services. So how feasible is adding platform 5 to the service?

Eurostar trains could be held in the unused international platforms at Stratford. Would this allow the platform to be freeded up?

There would need to be a fence down the platform to segregate it from international services and it would make sense to link it to the existing Midland concourse. Having moved the buffers north, the rest could be infilled with polystyrene blocks to preserve the track and then covered. The overhead wires would need insulation from live cables. A new crossover to change the route to the MML would be needed.
What would that then do for EMR service reliability and flexibility?

Good idea to use Platform 5 but as stated by @Ianno87 the problem is actually the fast MML lines being taken up by Thameslink. In theory the East Midlands Railway Services could run 8tph into St Pancras if it was not for Thameslink.

 

[30907]

What do you mean about holding ES trains at Stratford?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Eurostar trains could be held in the unused international platforms at Stratford.

The platforms may be unused but the tracks are not. If you were going to run an empty Eurostar out of St Pancras to stable it out of the way then you might as well take it all the way to Temple Mills in any case.

However, while it looks like they spend a very long time at St Pancras, there is quite a lot being done to them... cleaning and other preparations plus, presumably, security sweeps.

As others have said, though, you'd still have the issue of the MML itself being full to capacity.

 

[Ianno87]

The platforms may be unused but the tracks are not. If you were going to run an empty Eurostar out of St Pancras to stable it out of the way then you might as well take it all the way to Temple Mills in any case.

.

If the idea was to shunt Eurostars out of St Pancras to Stratford and back again to clear a platform, that doesn't work.... you can't arrive via the Down line into either International platform and reverse to return via the Up line.... the trackwork isn't there.

It's only possible via either the domestic platforms (which are too short) or the Temple Mills access line.

 

[Bald Rick]

St Pancras Midland Main Line platforms 1-4 are a significant constraint on East Midlands services.

They aren’t.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If those four platforms can't cope with a fairly limited timetable there must be something seriously wrong with the railways.

 

[AndrewE]

St Pancras Midland Main Line platforms 1-4 are a significant constraint on East Midlands services. So how feasible is adding platform 5 to the service?

Absolutely should not be done - not if it means bringing diesel trains back into the trainshed anyway. We should be looking at ways to prevent diesel trains being anywhere near overall station roofs. Electrification rules, OK?
(-And please wire Standedge tunnel (or shut off saloon the air intakes in it): my asthma hates that acid gas exposure!)

 

[adamedwards]

My assumption was EMR would use the north end of the platform under the low roof, not the main train shed. But also the bimodes are coming.

As regards track capacity of the Hendon lines became an extra down fast, could EMR trains loop round Thameslink trains crossing over going north? Southbound trains really need a flyover, but that would be horribly difficult.

 

[swt_passenger]

Absolutely should not be done - not if it means bringing diesel trains back into the trainshed anyway. We should be looking at ways to prevent diesel trains being anywhere near overall station roofs. Electrification rules, OK?
(-And please wire Standedge tunnel (or shut off saloon the air intakes in it): my asthma hates that acid gas exposure!)

EMR will have an all bimode or EMU fleet before long, so at least diesel trains wouldn’t be an issue. But as others have said it really isn’t needed for capacity reasons.

 

[Bald Rick]

As regards track capacity of the Hendon lines became an extra down fast, could EMR trains loop round Thameslink trains crossing over going north? Southbound trains really need a flyover, but that would be horribly difficult.

It would make little difference to capacity. The capacity issue is the relative time it takes the EMR trains and TL trains to get between West Hampstead and Harpenden / Bedford South. Peak TL trains are on minimum headwaya behind EMR at W Hampstead south - shifting that a few miles north will make next to no difference.

 

[sheff1]

They aren’t.

Can you elaborate. It seems to me that having to have 1 x 4 car and 1 x 5 car departure in the same platform because there are not enough platforms to accommodate two, fully justified, lengthier trains is a significant constraint.

 

[edwin_m]

Can you elaborate. It seems to me that having to have 1 x 4 car and 1 x 5 car departure in the same platform because there are not enough platforms to accommodate two, fully justified, lengthier trains is a significant constraint.

Currently the timetable is constrained by having several different types of train, so for example the Nottingham fasts which are HSTs now spend over an hour at St Pancras so occupy one and sometimes two platforms. Having a uniform fleet of five-car units, plus the electrics which probably don't need such long turnarounds, makes the platform use far more efficient as trains can interwork more between routes. Rule of thumb is that a platform can handle two intercity services per hour so four should be well capable of dealing with four intercity and two outer suburban.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can you elaborate. It seems to me that having to have 1 x 4 car and 1 x 5 car departure in the same platform because there are not enough platforms to accommodate two, fully justified, lengthier trains is a significant constraint.

I’ll elaborate. Across London another 4 platform terminus station manages 20 arrivals and 20 departures at peak times, with trains of 8-12 coaches.

It is not the number of platforms that is the issue, it is how they are used. Of course it’s easy to say ‘use them better’, but it is reasonable to assume that that will happen in the next year or three.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I’ll elaborate. Across London another 4 platform terminus station manages 20 arrivals and 20 departures at peak times, with trains of 8-12 coaches.

It is not the number of platforms that is the issue, it is how they are used. Of course it’s easy to say ‘use them better’, but it is reasonable to assume that that will happen in the next year or three.

Isn’t C2C the one your talking about? Most of the trains call at a vast majority of stations on the route and c2c is more ‘commuter’ therefor waiting times are shorter, but MML is all InterCity, so waiting time at Platform is much longer. I reckon max capacity is 8tph.

 

[edwin_m]

Isn’t C2C the one your talking about? Most of the trains call at a vast majority of stations on the route and c2c is more ‘commuter’ therefor waiting times are shorter, but MML is all InterCity, so waiting time at Platform is much longer. I reckon max capacity is 8tph.

Which is where I came to in my post above, and enough when the service will be 6TPH. There may be some peak extras going to/from Cricklewood sidings during the day (as now) but if so they won't need as much time in the platforms as they can be cleaned and replenished in the sidings instead.

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn’t C2C the one your talking about? Most of the trains call at a vast majority of stations on the route and c2c is more ‘commuter’ therefor waiting times are shorter, but MML is all InterCity, so waiting time at Platform is much longer. I reckon max capacity is 8tph.

Yes, it’s c2c. But look at the timetable, there’s a mix of services. Clearly they are different trains with different servicing requirements at the terminus.

However, there are stations approximately 100 metres east and 800 metres west of St Pancras where long distance inter city trains routinely turn round in 30-40 minutes, often less, and there’s no reason why that can’t be done at St Pancras once the rolling stock is sorted. Let’s not forget that in 15 months time one third of the EMR services out of St P high level will be EMUs with minimal servicing requirements between duties.

 

[43096]

Let’s not forget that in 15 months time one third of the EMR services out of St P high level will be EMUs with minimal servicing requirements between duties.

You are implying that the current diesel fleet has a longer servicing requirement between turns at St Pancras purely because it is diesel. Intrigued as to what is so different.

 

[Bald Rick]

You are implying that the current diesel fleet has a longer servicing requirement between turns at St Pancras purely because it is diesel. Intrigued as to what is so different.

It’s not because they are diesel. But the Corby services will, I’m sure, be on relatively short turn rounds.

 

[edwin_m]

It’s not because they are diesel. But the Corby services will, I’m sure, be on relatively short turn rounds.

If we assume the Corbies have a platform to themselves, which would allow turnarounds of 20min or a bit more, that leaves three platforms for the other four trains every hour.

 

[Bald Rick]

If we assume the Corbies have a platform to themselves, which would allow turnarounds of 20min or a bit more, that leaves three platforms for the other four trains every hour.

Or, 2 platforms each with 15 min turnarounds, and in the other 35-40 mins have a longer distance service in there, leaving one platform each for an hour long turn back.