Starting Short - Advanced (Northern)

[Marshmallow4]

Good Morning,

I had an issue with my train journey yesterday and was wondering what will likely be the outcome.

After being told by a ticket inspector earlier this year that it would be cheaper for me to get a ticket from Leeds to York and het on at Micklefield, I have recently been doing this, which I was informed by the guard on the train yesterday (September 1) made the journey invalid.

The guard asked me "did I miss you on the way round from Leeds". I told him no, I got on in Micklefield and that's when he took my details for an incident report.

I didn't know what I was doing was wrong - mainly as I was told to do this by a previous inspector - but accept responsibility. He said a letter would be coming in the post and that I may have to pay the difference, which I am happy to do.

Obviously, I'm worried about a hefty fine. What can I expect?

 

[AlterEgo]

Probably at most to pay the outstanding fare/s, for this occasion and any other occasions you’ve done it. It’s not a criminal matter.

However, starting short or breaking your journey on advance tickets isn’t permitted, especially where you are doing so to avoid the proper fare.

Honestly it’s really petty of the guard to report you for this. Desperate behaviour. A warning would have sufficed.

 

[Marshmallow4]

Probably at most to pay the outstanding fare/s, for this occasion and any other occasions you’ve done it. It’s not a criminal matter.

However, starting short or breaking your journey on advance tickets isn’t permitted, especially where you are doing so to avoid the proper fare.

Honestly it’s really petty of the guard to report you for this. Desperate behaviour. A warning would have sufficed.

Thank you,

The guard actually scanned the ticket fine, as the ticket was valid for the train, but then asked follow up of where I got on.

I'll be making a complaint as it was another train guard earlier this year that told me it was cheaper to go this way.

I'm worried I'll get a Fixed Penalty Notice through the post, or worse a court summons, glad to hear you suspect it's not a criminal offense.

Happy to pay the extra fare and go back to getting return tickets from my station.

 

[mikeg]

Just to check it's definitely an advance ticket and not just say a day return purchased in advance?

 

[WesternLancer]

Good Morning,

I had an issue with my train journey yesterday and was wondering what will likely be the outcome.

After being told by a ticket inspector earlier this year that it would be cheaper for me to get a ticket from Leeds to York and het on at Micklefield, I have recently been doing this, which I was informed by the guard on the train yesterday (September 1) made the journey invalid.

The guard asked me "did I miss you on the way round from Leeds". I told him no, I got on in Micklefield and that's when he took my details for an incident report.

I didn't know what I was doing was wrong - mainly as I was told to do this by a previous inspector - but accept responsibility. He said a letter would be coming in the post and that I may have to pay the difference, which I am happy to do.

Obviously, I'm worried about a hefty fine. What can I expect?

You are permitted to do this on other types of ticket (the ones that allow break of journey eg 'Anytime', 'Off Peak') but not on 'Advance' tickets (a special type of ticket that is widely sold but has a lot of restrictive conditions that you sign up to in exchange for complete lack of ticket flexibility). Do check your ticket was actually an Advance ticket (with a capital A) as suggested above. Never buy an Advance ticket unless it offers you a substantial saving over a more flexible ticket is my advice, tho up to you what you regard as 'substantial' - eg I never buy one unless I am saving at least £5.

If / when you get a letter from Northern about this you can rtn here for advice on how to reply - but do make sure you do reply as if you fail to do so it could be escalated to court for fare evasion and that will take you more time / cost to sort out.

I suspect you will have to pay more than juts the difference, potentially an admin fee on top.

The advice you were once given should have been along the lines of "on some occasions on some days depending on what ticket is available it might be cheaper for you to buy a ticket starting from Leeds instead of Micklefield but that won't always be the case with every type of fare available" or some such advice that would have left you even more confused....

if you want to post what ticket you had and what you paid for it it may be possible to work out the sort of sum they may demand of you when you hear from them (in a letter which may include threats of court action if you do not reply).

If you still have the ticket and can upload a pic or scan of it even better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is an interesting one because it raises the question of what constitutes break of journey.

The Advance T&Cs say:

6. Break of journey​

6.1 You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

But the NRCoT says in condition 9.5.3:

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

If, as per the heading which groups starting, breaking and resuming or ending at intermediates as "Break of Journey" in the T&Cs, starting late classes as Break of Journey, all the guard should have done is to charge you an excess to the cheapest valid Off Peak (Day) or Anytime (Day) Single and told you not to do it again.

However I suspect what you will get is a prosecution threat with a £100+Anytime Single fare settlement.

The easiest thing will be to pay that to make it go away, but there would be the option, at your cost, to speak to a specialist solicitor about whether they would think it defensible in Court because of the above wordings. The downside is that it might cost you more than £100 and you might lose and end up with a criminal record.

 

[Marshmallow4]

Just to check it's definitely an advance ticket and not just say a day return purchased in advance?

Yes, Advance single

You are permitted to do this on other types of ticket (the ones that allow break of journey eg 'Anytime', 'Off Peak') but not on 'Advance' tickets (a special type of ticket that is widely sold but has a lot of restrictive conditions that you sign up to in exchange for complete lack of ticket flexibility). Do check your ticket was actually an Advance ticket (with a capital A) as suggested above. Never buy an Advance ticket unless it offers you a substantial saving over a more flexible ticket is my advice, tho up to you what you regard as 'substantial' - eg I never buy one unless I am saving at least £5.

If / when you get a letter from Northern about this you can rtn here for advice on how to reply - but do make sure you do reply as if you fail to do so it could be escalated to court for fare evasion and that will take you more time / cost to sort out.

I suspect you will have to pay more than juts the difference, potentially an admin fee on top.

The advice you were once given should have been along the lines of "on some occasions on some days depending on what ticket is available it might be cheaper for you to buy a ticket starting from Leeds instead of Micklefield but that won't always be the case with every type of fare available" or some such advice that would have left you even more confused....

if you want to post what ticket you had and what you paid for it it may be possible to work out the sort of sum they may demand of you when you hear from them (in a letter which may include threats of court action if you do not reply).

If you still have the ticket and can upload a pic or scan of it even better.

I’ve attached the ticket, a single from Micklefield is 10.60. From Leeds it was £6.

I’m not too fussed about the fine, a had the wrong ticket, I get this outcome, but the fact a guard told me to do this - not that I can prove this.

This is an interesting one because it raises the question of what constitutes break of journey.

The Advance T&Cs say:

6. Break of journey​

6.1 You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

But the NRCoT says in condition 9.5.3:

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

If, as per the heading which groups starting, breaking and resuming or ending at intermediates as "Break of Journey" in the T&Cs, starting late classes as Break of Journey, all the guard should have done is to charge you an excess to the cheapest valid Off Peak (Day) or Anytime (Day) Single and told you not to do it again.

However I suspect what you will get is a prosecution threat with a £100+Anytime Single fare settlement.

The easiest thing will be to pay that to make it go away, but there would be the option, at your cost, to speak to a specialist solicitor about whether they would think it defensible in Court because of the above wordings. The downside is that it might cost you more than £100 and you might lose and end up with a criminal record.

I’d just pay and get it done with to be honest.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, Advance single

Thanks for clarifying. This would mean the Guard was correct and your ticket would not have been valid because of what you did (unless you want to bring, and can win, the legal test case that @Bletchleyite 's post suggests, but my hunch is you probably don't for the cost reasons he outlines).

Prob best to wait to see if you hear from Northern now, and then head back here for how best to respond to that.

For future travel I would suggest only buy an Advance ticket from where you plan to board to where you intend to get off, but if you buy a more flexible ticket, and it is indeed cheaper from Leeds, you can get on at Micklefield (tho you would need to be mindful of any general time related restrictions if the ticket was Off Peak eg travel not valid before say 9am for example)

 

[Marshmallow4]

Prob best to wait to see if you hear from Northern now, and then head back here for how best to respond to that.

For future travel I would suggest only buy an Advance ticket from where you plan to board to where you intend to get off, but if you buy a more flexible ticket, and it is indeed cheaper from Leeds, you can get on at Micklefield (tho you would need to be mindful of any general time related restrictions if the ticket was Off Peak eg travel not valid before say 9am for example

Thank you for the advise. I’ll go back to getting my returns Micklefield to York

 

[Puffing Devil]

I have the following in an email from Northern in 2017, which I keep in case of issues:

However, you will be able to purchase an advance ticket from Crewe to Manchester and get on at <Your station without advances>.

 

[skyhigh]

I have the following in an email from Northern in 2017, which I keep in case of issues:

Does an email that's 5 years old and from the previous franchise really offer much protection against using a product in violation of its terms?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Does an email that's 5 years old and from the previous franchise really offer much protection against using a product in violation of its terms?

Starter for 10 if they do decide to chase - though I travel so rarely when I can use an advance, now there's little chance of an issue.

 

[Haywain]

Does an email that's 5 years old and from the previous franchise really offer much protection against using a product in violation of its terms?

And for a completely different journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

What criminal offence do people suggesting a settlement to avoid prosecution think has been committed here?

 

[jamiearmley]

This is an interesting one because it raises the question of what constitutes break of journey.

The Advance T&Cs say:

6. Break of journey​

6.1 You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

But the NRCoT says in condition 9.5.3:

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

If, as per the heading which groups starting, breaking and resuming or ending at intermediates as "Break of Journey" in the T&Cs, starting late classes as Break of Journey, all the guard should have done is to charge you an excess to the cheapest valid Off Peak (Day) or Anytime (Day) Single and told you not to do it again.

However I suspect what you will get is a prosecution threat with a £100+Anytime Single fare settlement.

The easiest thing will be to pay that to make it go away, but there would be the option, at your cost, to speak to a specialist solicitor about whether they would think it defensible in Court because of the above wordings. The downside is that it might cost you more than £100 and you might lose and end up with a criminal record.

Really good point.

I wonder if the specific terms of the Advance ticket "trump" the general terms of thr NrCoT? (In the same way that applying a 16-25 railcard on a fare below £12 before 10am makes an anytime day return "not" an anytime day return? )

I do know that in any event, the excessing of an advance ticket on train is not usual practice, and wonder also about the £10 admin fee.

**
For the OP, travelling from crossgates/ garforth/ east garforth on a Northern service to York is expensive. A 'northern only' anytime / off peak day single or return Leeds to York is significantly cheaper. However, there is no saving to be made, in either direction, from micklefield, church Fenton or ulleskelf. As others have said, advances are not suitable for such 'starting short'.

Good luck!

 

[Puffing Devil]

And for a completely different journey.

It's for my benefit, not the OP. Though the principle that TOCs accept short starts has been documented.

 

[Haywain]

It's for my benefit, not the OP. Though the principle that TOCs accept short starts has been documented.

Posting it on this thread suggests that you think it is of some benefit to the OP.

 

[yorkie]

Firstly I wouldn't agree to pay a fine as this means you have been found guilty of a criminal act.

Secondly the correct action when someone breaks their journey, when not permitted to do so, is only to charge an excess fare, priced as the difference between the fare paid and the lowest priced fare that would have enabled the actual journey made; in practice virtually no such excess fares are issued in reality.

Thirdly Northern have previously stated this is permitted; the letter received by @Puffing Devil is relevant regardless of the fact it's a different journey.

There is also the matter raised by @Bletchleyite

If Northern attempt to prosecute you, I would advise not replying until you have sought advice from us. The matter should be fought in my opinion.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Posting it on this thread suggests that you think it is of some benefit to the OP.

It is - in terms of the establishment of the principle. The retention of the email is for my use should I encounter an issue in the future.

 

[WesternLancer]

If Northern attempt to prosecute you, I would advise not replying until you have sought advice from us. The matter should be fought in my opinion.

v good advice since my hunch is Northern will not bother to study the specific circs before issuing the std letters, weight up the circs and decide to do nothing. Far more likely that the gaurd's report just goes in a pile with other 'genuine' fare evasion cases and the OP gets sent the usual standard letter along with everyone else in that pile.

How to reply to that, citing relevant stuff that people have posted in this thread, will thus be crucial, if only to save the OP money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What criminal offence do people suggesting a settlement to avoid prosecution think has been committed here?

Travelling without a valid ticket for the journey that was made and with the intention to avoid paying the correct fare. UNLESS the reading I mentioned of the Advance T&Cs and NRCoT is correct, but I wouldn't try to use that without running it past a legal professional, as it is rather a technicality of wording as to whether starting late constitutes break of journey or not.

I think Northern's first move will be a standard £100+fare settlement. The OP has to decide if they want to seek professional advice and try to defend on the possible basis I have outlined or whether it is easier just to pay it, as they were certainly engaging in fare AVOIDANCE and may have saved quite a few quid if they've done it a few times (but if they have they shouldn't tell Northern that unless they already know) - the thing that is in question is whether it is EVASION or not. My opinion is that it probably isn't, but I am an IT consultant, not a legal professional, so the OP should not take that advice to Court without running it past an experienced professional.

As to the Advance T&C overriding the NRCoT, I don't think they do, they do not conflict, they read together.

Regarding excessing Advances, this is specifically for this case (prohibited break of journey) and is not applicable to travelling on the wrong train, which is simple travel without a valid ticket.

 

[Marshmallow4]

Hi all,

I've received a letter asking for my version of events with the intention to prosecute.

Regards
Stuart

Here is a draft of my letter:

Dear Sirs/Madams

I'm writing the response to a letter received for incident report filed on Thursday, September 1 at 8:38. I was travelling on the train from Leeds to York.

I have been travelling on Northern semi-regularly, from Micklefield to York, for work and had been purchasing an Anytime Day Return from Micklefield every day as I didn't use the train regularly enough to purchase a season ticket.

When I was travelling home from York on the 7th of April this year, a ticket inspector advised me that it would be cheaper to purchase a ticket from Leeds to York, rather than purchase from Micklefield. On reflection, he was perhaps advising to buy an Anytime Day Return ticket, rather than the Advanced Single I bought on the day in question.

On September 1, I had purchased an Advance Single from Leeds to York, but got on at a later stop in Micklefield. Unfortunately, I was not aware I was required to get on the train at Leeds, and getting on at Micklefield made this ticket invalid. I was approached by the ticket inspector, showed him my ticket which scanned, and he asked me if I had got on at Leeds and that he had missed me on his initial inspection.

I told him no, I had got on at Micklefield, and that's when he explained that I had got the wrong ticket type and filed the report.

I was on the correct train, at the correct time, but because I started at a station nearer to York than Leeds it made the ticket invalid.

I wholeheartedly apologise for the incident, it was not my intention to travel without a valid ticket but also understand it is my responsibility to read the terms and conditions and ensure I have a valid ticket.

I have already rectified the situation, purchasing Anytime Return tickets from Micklefield to York when I make journeys.

Yours Faithfully

 

[Watershed]

Hi all,

I've received a letter asking for my version of events with the intention to prosecute.

Regards
Stuart

Here is a draft of my letter:

Dear Sirs/Madams

I'm writing the response to a letter received for incident report filed on Thursday, September 1 at 8:38. I was travelling on the train from Leeds to York.

I have been travelling on Northern semi-regularly, from Micklefield to York, for work and had been purchasing an Anytime Day Return from Micklefield every day as I didn't use the train regularly enough to purchase a season ticket.

When I was travelling home from York on the 7th of April this year, a ticket inspector advised me that it would be cheaper to purchase a ticket from Leeds to York, rather than purchase from Micklefield. On reflection, he was perhaps advising to buy an Anytime Day Return ticket, rather than the Advanced Single I bought on the day in question.

On September 1, I had purchased an Advance Single from Leeds to York, but got on at a later stop in Micklefield. Unfortunately, I was not aware I was required to get on the train at Leeds, and getting on at Micklefield made this ticket invalid. I was approached by the ticket inspector, showed him my ticket which scanned, and he asked me if I had got on at Leeds and that he had missed me on his initial inspection.

I told him no, I had got on at Micklefield, and that's when he explained that I had got the wrong ticket type and filed the report.

I was on the correct train, at the correct time, but because I started at a station nearer to York than Leeds it made the ticket invalid.

I wholeheartedly apologise for the incident, it was not my intention to travel without a valid ticket but also understand it is my responsibility to read the terms and conditions and ensure I have a valid ticket.

I have already rectified the situation, purchasing Anytime Return tickets from Micklefield to York when I make journeys.

Yours Faithfully

First of all, can you share a redacted copy of Northern's letter? Particularly relevant is what allegation they are actually making.

Furthermore, I would be a little bit careful about what you say in your letter. Whilst it certainly strikes the right tone, you don't want to understate your case. For instance, I wouldn't mention that the RPI may have meant you should buy an Anytime Day Return - this wouldn't have saved you any money and so they could only have meant an Advance Single. I think this is an important part of your case, as it is essentially your key defence against any argument that you had intent to avoid payment of the fare.

Furthermore, getting on at Micklefield didn't mean that your ticket was invalid - it simply meant that an excess was due. It is the repeated non-payment of the excess that is problematic.

 

[Marshmallow4]

Attached letter.

 

[Watershed]

Attached letter.

Thanks. That letter indicates that they haven't yet firmly decided whether they think an offence has been committed, and if so, what that offence might be.

So I would not start admitting that you had an invalid ticket, because that wasn't the case. The problem you have is that you did not pay the correct fare (by failing to pay the excess on multiple previous occasions) and therefore they may accuse you of having the intention of avoiding payment of the excess.

Therefore the part about what the RPI told you in April is crucial, as it provides your defence to any such accusation - although obviously Northern may not necessarily believe what you say.

 

[Marshmallow4]

Amended a few things.

Dear Sirs/Madams

I'm writing the response to a letter received for incident report filed on Thursday, September 1 at 8:38. I was travelling on the train from Leeds to York.

I have been travelling on Northern semi-regularly, from Micklefield to York, for work and had been purchasing an Anytime Day Return from Micklefield every day as I didn't use the train regularly enough to purchase a season ticket.

When I was travelling home from York on the 7th of April this year, a ticket inspector advised me that it would be cheaper to purchase a ticket from Leeds to York, rather than purchase from Micklefield.

On September 1, I had purchased an Advance Single from Leeds to York, but got on at a later stop in Micklefield. Unfortunately, I was not aware I was required to get on the train at Leeds. I was approached by the ticket inspector, showed him my ticket which scanned, and he asked me if I had got on at Leeds and that he had missed me on his initial inspection.

I told him no, I had got on at Micklefield, and that's when he explained that I had got the wrong ticket type and filed the report.

I was on the correct train, at the correct time, but I started at a station nearer to York than Leeds.

I wholeheartedly apologise for the incident, it is my responsibility to read the terms and conditions and ensure I have the correct ticket type.

I have already rectified the situation, purchasing Anytime Return tickets from Micklefield to York when I make journeys.

Yours Faithfully

 

[Watershed]

Amended a few things.

Dear Sirs/Madams

I'm writing the response to a letter received for incident report filed on Thursday, September 1 at 8:38. I was travelling on the train from Leeds to York.

I have been travelling on Northern semi-regularly, from Micklefield to York, for work and had been purchasing an Anytime Day Return from Micklefield every day as I didn't use the train regularly enough to purchase a season ticket.

When I was travelling home from York on the 7th of April this year, a ticket inspector advised me that it would be cheaper to purchase a ticket from Leeds to York, rather than purchase from Micklefield.

On September 1, I had purchased an Advance Single from Leeds to York, but got on at a later stop in Micklefield. Unfortunately, I was not aware I was required to get on the train at Leeds. I was approached by the ticket inspector, showed him my ticket which scanned, and he asked me if I had got on at Leeds and that he had missed me on his initial inspection.

I told him no, I had got on at Micklefield, and that's when he explained that I had got the wrong ticket type and filed the report.

I was on the correct train, at the correct time, but I started at a station nearer to York than Leeds.

I wholeheartedly apologise for the incident, it is my responsibility to read the terms and conditions and ensure I have the correct ticket type.

I have already rectified the situation, purchasing Anytime Return tickets from Micklefield to York when I make journeys.

Yours Faithfully

Yes, I think that's a better wording. Feel free to wait for someone else to chip in though before you send your letter off.

 

[spag23]

Yes, I think that's a better wording. Feel free to wait for someone else to chip in though before you send your letter off.

Perhaps it's worth repeating towards the end that you'd only purchased the ticket on a previous ticket inspector's specific advice, which you'd naturally assumed it was compliant with the ticket's terms. So you are now apparently being penalised as a direct and sole result of their inspectors' inadequate training.

 

[Haywain]

So you are now apparently being penalised as a direct and sole result of their inspectors' inadequate training.

It would not be appropriate to use that sort of terminology. Better to simply say something about being confused by contradictory advice from different staff.

 

[johntea]

Just looking at the phone screenshot how hard would it be for the relevant people to add some extra vadility text to the 'Route' section e.g. 'Only valid if boarding at Leeds/Origin station and departing at York/Destination station'

I think most customers understand the *timing* element of an advance ticket these days (i.e. specific service) but far fewer the terms surrounding boarding/alighting at intermediate stations, they just assume they can do it on their standard tickets so can do the same here and save a few quid in the process, I've certainly been guilty of doing the exact same in the past although obviously don't any more since I'm more aware now