Stratford International. Could it live up to its name?

[fandroid]

Dyan Crowther, CEO of HS1, is reported as searching for more international services to more diverse destinations in continental Europe. Well he would, wouldn't he?

Leaving aside the several other obstacles to expansion of international rail services from GB, how practical would it be to convert Stratford International for use by international trains? Would adding extra border facilities there help to bring the London terminus capacity of HS2 back to at least where it was before the end of the Brexit transition and maybe to provide even greater border processing capacity than existed back in 2020?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Dyan Crowther, CEO of HS1 is reported as searching for more international services to more diverse destinations in continental Europe. Well he would, wouldn't he? Leaving aside the several other obstacles to expansion of international rail services from GB, how practical would it be to convert Stratford International for use by international trains? Would adding extra border facilities there help to bring the London terminus capacity of HS2 back to at least where it was before the end of the Brexit transition and maybe to provide even greater border processing capacity than existed back in 2020?

Dyan Crowther is female.

 

[JonathanH]

Leaving aside the several other obstacles to expansion of international rail services from GB, how practical would it be to convert Stratford International for use by international trains?

It would seem fairly pointless to set up Stratford International for use by international trains. Is there a practical way of actually starting trains there without running them into St Pancras?

Reopening Ebbsfleet and / or Ashford would be easier, and there is no sign of that happening.

 

[popeter45]

It would seem fairly pointless to set up Stratford International for use by international trains. Is there a practical way of actually starting trains there without running them into St Pancras?

Reopening Ebbsfleet and / or Ashford would be easier, and there is no sign of that happening.

Prob what would make more sense than starting trains at Stratford would be split loading with st pancreas, load back half at st pancreas then front half at Stratford

 

[JonathanH]

What issue are we trying to solve here? Is it just overcrowding in the departure and arrivals area at St Pancras and throughput on the barrier controls?

I note that at busy times there can be long queues at St Pancras. Are these worse than they used to be?

 

[WizCastro197]

Dyan Crowther, CEO of HS1, is reported as searching for more international services to more diverse destinations in continental Europe. Well he would, wouldn't he?

Leaving aside the several other obstacles to expansion of international rail services from GB, how practical would it be to convert Stratford International for use by international trains? Would adding extra border facilities there help to bring the London terminus capacity of HS2 back to at least where it was before the end of the Brexit transition and maybe to provide even greater border processing capacity than existed back in 2020?

I don't see what is wrong with St Pancras. Realistically, how many people are actually going to be boarding alighting at Stratford? Stratford International is not an international station for a reason, and it should stay that way.

 

[dk1]

Stratford International is best left as it is. I can never see it being used for anything other than domestic traffic. It’s not worth the expense or hassle.

 

[WizCastro197]

Stratford International is best left as it is. I can never see it being used for anything other than domestic traffic. It’s not worth the expense or hassle.

I agree, and if overcrowding at St Pancras is the issue, I am sure that can be sorted without spending perhaps millions on upgrading the station for it to have limited international usage perhaps. Does Stratford Intl even have space to extend the platforms for 18 coach operation?

 

[dk1]

I agree, and if overcrowding at St Pancras is the issue, I am sure that can be sorted without spending perhaps millions on upgrading the station for it to have limited international usage perhaps. Does Stratford Intl even have space to extend the platforms for 18 coach operation?

I thought the outer platforms where built especially for them hence why a platform topping to make it higher & compatible with Javelins had to be put in when they briefly used them during the summer of 2012.

 

[PGAT]

I’m getting the impression that they’re only pining for international services so that it can live up to its name.

 

[adamedwards]

Is it possible for a rival operator to run a train to Stratford and then reverse using the link from HS1 to the North London Line? in doing do they can ava way oid paying to use St Pancras. I have no idea if this produces any saving!

The major problem now is the post Brexit rules on ID checking, set to get worse in 2023 when fingerprinting of non-EU residents (ie UK nationals and others) which will slow down the through put at St Pancras and means the existing space can only cope by them running less trains with less customers. So maybe if extra customs staff can be hired from the UK and France, Straford might be way to help this, but at some cost extra cost. This won't be a low cost competitor as a result.

 

[martin2345uk]

Would surely be cheaper to stick a vinyl over the word "International" on the station signs

 

[flitwickbeds]

As this is the Speculative forum, how about another operator running trains through the Chunnel from Birningham/Manchester via the WCML and NLL, with the London stop being Stratford?

Would require an International station setting up in those two cities, and domestic (high speed) travel being allowed between Manchester/Birmingham and London, as well as international travellers who would simply stay on the train.

Domestic travellers would obviously have to go through passport control, or maybe there could be a dedicated coach for domestic travellers.

 

[AlterEgo]

As this is the Speculative forum, how about another operator running trains through the Chunnel from Birningham/Manchester via the WCML and NLL, with the London stop being Stratford?

Would require an International station setting up in those two cities, and domestic (high speed) travel being allowed between Manchester/Birmingham and London, as well as international travellers who would simply stay on the train.

Domestic travellers would obviously have to go through passport control, or maybe there could be a dedicated coach for domestic travellers.

So many issues with that - I'm not sure there's a market for that route given it would be at least five hours from Manchester and a flight is 90 minutes. Where would you conduct the security check, and passport control? Overall it seems too much hassle for too little benefit.

 

[Elecman]

Dyan Crowther, CEO of HS1, is reported as searching for more international services to more diverse destinations in continental Europe. Well he would, wouldn't he?

‘He’ is a She!!

 

[43096]

As this is the Speculative forum, how about another operator running trains through the Chunnel from Birningham/Manchester via the WCML and NLL, with the London stop being Stratford?

Would require an International station setting up in those two cities, and domestic (high speed) travel being allowed between Manchester/Birmingham and London, as well as international travellers who would simply stay on the train.

Domestic travellers would obviously have to go through passport control, or maybe there could be a dedicated coach for domestic travellers.

Someone had this idea about 30 to 40 years ago and built trains for it. The services never ran.

If you're wondering why, you've heard of Ryanair and EasyJet, haven't you?

 

[flitwickbeds]

So many issues with that - I'm not sure there's a market for that route given it would be at least five hours from Manchester and a flight is 90 minutes. Where would you conduct the security check, and passport control? Overall it seems too much hassle for too little benefit.

First, I did say this was speculative!

Second, you can't compare a city-centre-to-city-centre train with an airport-airport flight. Assuming you're talking Paris, from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport is a:

• 20 minute train ride
• 15 minute walk transfer
• Minimum 40 minute checkin (you'd probably want to leave 90 minutes to be safe)
• 90 minute flight
• 45 minutes minimum to leave the airport
• 15 minute transfer to train
• 30 minutes train to city centre (or 1h20 train from Beauvais, which is where it looks like a lot of Manchester flights end up).

So that's 4h15 at least by my calculations, probably more like 5 or 6 hours in reality. Of course there are many variables - you might live near to Manchester Airport in the first place, or you might be heading to Paris to actually go to Beauvais. But comparing the time is (a) on paper comparable, but (b) utterly variable.

Third, passport control would need to go somewhere, yes. Could this potentially be done on train between Birmingham and Stratford, then kick out anyone without valid documentation at Stratford?

Ultimately I agree this proposal will never come to fruition. But could be a good way for an operator to provide high speed rail links between the second and third English cities and a secondary station on the outskirts of the capital. Priced sensibly it might become a popular domestic route in its own right, making it almost a train of two halves - mainly domestic between London and the rest of England (it could even be extended to Edinburgh), and a cheaper international option between Stratford (avoiding St Pancras) and the continent.

 

[JonathanH]

Priced sensibly it might become a popular domestic route in its own right, making it almost a train of two halves - mainly domestic between London and the rest of England (it could even be extended to Edinburgh), and a cheaper international option between Stratford (avoiding St Pancras) and the continent.

It wouldn't have the benefit of economies of scale to be 'priced sensibly'.

But could be a good way for an operator to provide high speed rail links between the second and third English cities and a secondary station on the outskirts of the capital.

Ebbsfleet is a secondary station on the outskirts of London and Eurostar no longer serve it. Concentrating everything on St Pancras saves them money.

 

[PGAT]

If you were so laser focused on taking the train from Manchester to Paris, you could do almost as well just by changing at Euston and taking the short Victoria line journey to St Pancras.

If we were being hypothetical, then linking up HS2 to HS1 (by avoiding St Pancras and Euston) would be more viable.

 

[JonathanH]

If you were so laser focused on taking the train from Manchester to Paris, you could do almost as well just by changing at Euston and taking the short Victoria line journey to St Pancras.

...or indeed walking 650 metres.

 

[AlterEgo]

First, I did say this was speculative!

Second, you can't compare a city-centre-to-city-centre train with an airport-airport flight. Assuming you're talking Paris, from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport is a:

• 20 minute train ride
• 15 minute walk transfer
• Minimum 40 minute checkin (you'd probably want to leave 90 minutes to be safe)
• 90 minute flight
• 45 minutes minimum to leave the airport
• 15 minute transfer to train
• 30 minutes train to city centre (or 1h20 train from Beauvais, which is where it looks like a lot of Manchester flights end up).

That calculation is a bit skewed (eg: CDG is bad but it doesn't take a whole hour [!] to leave the airport, especially as most people don't check a bag on budget short haul) but that doesn't matter in the scheme of things. 2h30m is where high speed rail hits the sweet spot against air and it is very tough to encourage modal shift for rail journey times much beyond that, especially in the UK, and especially where that journey bumps up against the inconveniences of passport control, mandatory checkin and security.

Third, passport control would need to go somewhere, yes. Could this potentially be done on train between Birmingham and Stratford, then kick out anyone without valid documentation at Stratford?

No. Passport control in 2023 between Britain and France would have to be done at a manned post, for the sheer politics alone, technological barriers aside. In any case you need to perform security checks on 500 people before the train goes into the tunnel, so why not check passports there? I estimate this would put in up to an hour on any schedule and to be honest you don't want to be doing that mid journey.

 

[Class15]

If we were being hypothetical, then linking up HS2 to HS1 (by avoiding St Pancras and Euston) would be more viable.

Via the Primrose Hill Line?

 

[ShadowKnight]

Stratford International is best left as it is. I can never see it being used for anything other than domestic traffic. It’s not worth the expense or hassle.

How about some speculation on the feasibility on domestic expansion of services onto the WCML to Milton Keynes or Birmingham perhaps?

Is there scope for a London bypassing/outskirts regional (high speed?) service between Kent and the WCML/GWML etc?

 

[dk1]

How about some speculation on the feasibility on domestic expansion of services onto the WCML to Milton Keynes or Birmingham perhaps?

Is there scope for a London bypassing/outskirts regional (high speed?) service between Kent and the WCML/GWML etc?

I’m not sure demand would be great enough, particularly now we have the Elizabeth line for those heading West.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there scope for a London bypassing/outskirts regional (high speed?) service between Kent and the WCML/GWML etc?

No. The demand is better served by concentrating resources on the London Terminals. Railways work best when long trains are filled with passengers on concentrated flows, as it provides the economies of scale that are needed to overcome the costs associated with the fixed infrastructure.

 

[adamedwards]

Re Primrose Hill, the issues for any operator are capacity at Camden Road inbetween the Overground and freight trains and on the West Coast Main Line, capacity in between the Pendolinos.

I sadly suspect a travelator between Euston HS2 platforms and St Pancras will be a much more cost effective option.

 

[Nym]

Re Primrose Hill, the issues for any operator are capacity at Camden Road inbetween the Overground and freight trains and on the West Coast Main Line, capacity in between the Pendolinos.

I sadly suspect a travelator between Euston HS2 platforms and St Pancras will be a much more cost effective option.

While this is true, the work to clear at least one line in one direction to transfer between HS1 and HS2 does bring far too many benifits to not even be entertained.

How does one bring a high speed infrastructure test train onto HS2 for example?

 

[popeter45]

While this is true, the work to clear at least one line in one direction to transfer between HS1 and HS2 does bring far too many benifits to not even be entertained.

How does one bring a high speed infrastructure test train onto HS2 for example?

TGV Iris wont be used on HS2, i suspect they will just use the HST NMT with ETCS added for checks and it will join at the birmingham end

 

[MarkyT]

Re Primrose Hill, the issues for any operator are capacity at Camden Road inbetween the Overground and freight trains and on the West Coast Main Line, capacity in between the Pendolinos.

I sadly suspect a travelator between Euston HS2 platforms and St Pancras will be a much more cost effective option.

I don't think it's sad at all. Hubbing via London is a much better solution for international traffic as it will provide vastly more choice of departure time and potential European destinations, and is the only realistic way of dealing with practical matters of border security. A NW/Midlands to 'continent' (i.e. Paris only) would probably be at most a twice-daily run to cater for demand and that's likely to be a poor use of the HS2 or WCML paths concerned. International trains also couldn't convey any domestic UK passengers unless parts of platforms at stations served were sectioned off with separate complex access routes and checkpoints. As to cross-London domestic longer-distance express services on WCML, they would be less useful and commercially viable if they didn't also serve the main terminal for the route concerned, i.e. Euston, which would have to be rebuilt with at least some through platforms added leading to a cross London tunnel. The question then is where would this lead; there's no particular route south or east of London that the majority of non-London WCML passengers are clearly heading for. Again, hubbing via an improved pedestrian connection to St Pancras for Thameslink and Kent HS1 domestics, as well as existing tube and bus connections to other terminals is a better bet IMHO.

TGV Iris wont be used on HS2, i suspect they will just use the HST NMT with ETCS added for checks and it will join at the birmingham end

I suspect the project will deliver a 'doctor yellow' version of one of the new classic compatible HS trains for initial testing and then ongoing maintenance monitoring purposes. It's also possible that the general fleet itself will be equipped with more sensors for infrastructure monitoring in day-to-day service than typical trains today.

 

[YorksLad12]

Would surely be cheaper to stick a vinyl over the word "International" on the station signs

Cheaper, but might cause some confusion for passengers to the other Stratford station down the road. Stratford Olympic, possibly, or Stratford-for-Westfield?