Super off peak single London to Dundee validity North of Newcastle

[NorEast]

I'm using this standard class, flexible ticket on a weekday. May get off for something to eat in Newcastle or Edinburgh, then finish my journey to Dundee on the same day. Would I be right to think that the ticket won't let me get a train that left London after 1400, but other trains on that line would be ok?

 

[transportphoto]

Yes - if the restriction reads only “not valid on trains timed to depart London…”, the ticket is only restricted on trains that have departed from London.

CrossCountry Newcastle to Edinburgh would be unrestricted - for example - as would a Leeds to Scotland service.

 

[PG]

Yes - if the restriction reads only “not valid on trains timed to depart London…”, the ticket is only restricted on trains that have departed from London.

CrossCountry Newcastle to Edinburgh would be unrestricted - for example - as would a Leeds to Scotland service.

BRfares has the text of the 9F restriction as

Not valid for departures from:
London Terminals (except as shown below) after 02:59 and before 09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays);

It doesn't say anything about "trains timed to depart London..." so my reading of it is that the OP can rejoin any subsequent service after their meal break. Happy to be corrected if I've misinterpreted?

 

[NorEast]

Thanks! Would be very helpful if the extra flexibility PG mentioned. Is there a way to confirm interpretation?

 

[HurdyGurdy]

If you use a booking site such as the forum's, which allows you to specify a change of train and a lengthy wait at Newcastle, it's possible to obtain itineraries which use services between Newcastle and Dundee which would not be allowed by restriction 9F if those services were boarded at Kings Cross or Stevenage.

But if you do use any of those services between Newcastle and Dundee and your London Terminals to Dundee ticket is checked on the train, you may want to think about how you would convince the ticket inspector that you hadn't boarded it at either Kings Cross or Stevenage. If it's an e-ticket, an onboard scan may well indicate the ticket isn't valid, if it presumes you boarded the train at Kings Cross.

 

[TUC]

If you use a booking site such as the forum's, which allows you to specify a change of train and a lengthy wait at Newcastle, it's possible to obtain itineraries which use services between Newcastle and Dundee which would not be allowed by restriction 9F if those services were boarded at Kings Cross or Stevenage.

But if you do use any of those services between Newcastle and Dundee and your London Terminals to Dundee ticket is checked on the train, you may want to think about how you would convince the ticket inspector that you hadn't boarded it at either Kings Cross or Stevenage. If it's an e-ticket, an onboard scan may well indicate the ticket isn't valid, if it presumes you boarded the train at Kings Cross.

Frankly, on a flexible ticket, there should be no need to convince a guard that you have broken your journey. It's a perfectly legitimate action to take. The onus would surely be on the, to prove it to the comtrary?

 

[Watershed]

I would use an online booking site such as the forum's site, which allows you to specify changes (including extra time), so that you have an itinerary which shows the trains you intend to take. That way there can be no doubt that what you are doing is contractually permitted and if you are charged anything extra, you have clear recourse.

 

[NorEast]

Thanks!

 

[nitten_travell]

BRfares has the text of the 9F restriction as

It doesn't say anything about "trains timed to depart London..." so my reading of it is that the OP can rejoin any subsequent service after their meal break. Happy to be corrected if I've misinterpreted?

BRfares has the text of the 9F restriction as

It doesn't say anything about "trains timed to depart London..." so my reading of it is that the OP can rejoin any subsequent service after their meal break. Happy to be corrected if I've misinterpreted?

Surely you’re correct and it applies only to the departure from said London terminals? I mean, how is a passenger - lets say me - supposed to know if the next LNER service started in London or Leeds (or Doncaster?). Such details are not given on platform boards.

 

[TUC]

The southbound equivalent Super Off-Peak ticket has a restriction 1K of 'not valid into London Terminals after 0429 and before 1117' (with variations for certain London stations). Although there is no service from Dundee to London to arrive before 1117, a similar ticket and restrictions exist for a number of other stations for ECML journeys to London. Does a similar principle apply, that one could use the ticket at any time of the morning as long as one breaks the journey before London, and does not actually arrive in London until after 1117?

 

[Watershed]

The southbound equivalent Super Off-Peak ticket has a restriction 1K of 'not valid into London Terminals after 0429 and before 1117' (with variations for certain London stations). Although there is no service from Dundee to London to arrive before 1117, a similar ticket and restrictions exist for a number of other stations for ECML journeys to London. Does a similar principle apply, that one could use the ticket at any time of the morning as long as one breaks the journey before London, and does not actually arrive in London until after 1117?

I suspect this would be trickier to justify if using a London-bound service that is scheduled to arrive into Kings Cross before 11:17. For one thing, because of the way the electronic versions of the restriction codes are implemented, an 'arrival' restriction is applied to both the station where you get off a train as well as the final destination of the train. Therefore, you wouldn't be able to buy a Super Off-Peak ticket in conjunction with an itinerary which shows your intended trains. So you wouldn't have the contractual backing of an itinerary.

Moreover, the Train Manager may claim that they have no way of knowing whether or not you'll actually get off by the last stop before London. Obviously that's not how it's supposed to work, but you have to consider the fact that they'll have their train in mind as "peak". They may be sceptical of anyone who justifies "circumventing" the restriction by saying they plan to break their journey.

You also have to read the wording of each restriction code carefully. 1K is subtly different to how you have summarised it, as it actually says:

Not valid for arrivals into:

• London Terminals (except as shown below) after 04:29 and before 11:17;

I think it would be tricky to argue that trains such as the Flying Scotsman don't fall into the definition of "arrivals into London Terminals ... before 11:17".

The only thing that really goes in your favour is that some of the intermediate stations north of London, such as Stevenage, are listed separately with different timings. But I think the intention of the restriction is clear as it says "except as shown below". In other words, unless the station you plan to alight at is listed (Peterborough, for example, isn't), you have to apply the London Terminals restriction.