TfGM survey on improved rail connections in Stockport

[Skyblue67]

Hello. Long time lurker, first time poster here. I thought this might be of interest.

From a TfGM twitter post:

We're inviting Stockport and Tameside residents to complete short surveys to inform the Strategic Outline Business Case we are undertaking to consider the case for a:

1) Regular passenger rail service between Stockport and either Manchester Victoria or Stalybridge via Reddish South and Denton
SURVEY: https://forms.office.com/r/xbMcJrACxD

2) New passenger rail service between Rose Hill (Marple) and Stockport SURVEY: https://forms.office.com/r/0igmmzynfV

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533752567674687489

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Ah! Being a Londoner who never has any reason to travel on the line between Stockport and Guide Bridge, may I ask Mancunians if a regular service might attract worthwhile patronage from people in Reddish and Denton? It doesn't surprise me that a Parliamentary service isn't used much.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Ah! Being a Londoner who never has any reason to travel on the line between Stockport and Guide Bridge, may I ask Mancunians if a regular service might attract worthwhile patronage from people in Reddish and Denton? It doesn't surprise me that a Parliamentary service isn't used much.

I used it a few times in the 80s when it was a regular service between Stalybridge and Stockport, hourly I think, it was never very busy

 

[weepingwillowb]

I also used the Stalybridge-Stockport line in the 80s. Usage varied on Saturday mornings, most passengers going to Stockport seemed, like me, to have got off the train from Leeds. Can remember one time a group of five or six trainspotters getting very animated as it approached Guide Bridge, dashing from side to side of the carriage.

 

[Mollman]

Ah! Being a Londoner who never has any reason to travel on the line between Stockport and Guide Bridge, may I ask Mancunians if a regular service might attract worthwhile patronage from people in Reddish and Denton? It doesn't surprise me that a Parliamentary service isn't used much.

I used it a few times in the 80s when it was a regular service between Stalybridge and Stockport, hourly I think, it was never very busy

A bit of context for our London friend (if needed), back in the 80s TransPennine services (generally only one or two an hour) ran via Victoria, the Stockport - Stalybridge shuttle therefore provided a useful link from the TransPennine service to Stockport and connections to Brum / London etc. Then in the early 90s (I think) in preparation for Manchester Airport rail link all TransPennine services were diverted into Piccadilly thus negating the need for the shuttle as interchange could be made in Manchester.

The issue of where best to run the improved service to is an interesting one. Most transport networks in Britain are of a Hub and spoke approach based around the regional centre (in this case Manchester) as that is where greatest travel demand is expected to be. However politicians have increasingly become obsessed by the lack of radial connections. Whilst I can understand the need for improved public transport links between Stockport and Reddish & Marple I am not so convinced that there are masses of people wanting to travel from Stalybridge to Denton etc.

 

[Watershed]

Having a direct service from Stockport to Rose Hill Marple would tick quite a few boxes, so it's not difficult to see why it's been mooted.

The journey time would be around 23 minutes, based on the Sprinter timings of the existing Rose Hill and Denton services, so (paths permitting!) a half-hourly service could be done with 2 units, or an hourly service with 1 unit. Thus it's potentially a slightly more resource efficient way of serving the Rose Hill branch, whilst offering increased connectivity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having a direct service from Stockport to Rose Hill Marple would tick quite a few boxes, so it's not difficult to see why it's been mooted.

The journey time would be around 23 minutes, based on the Sprinter timings of the existing Rose Hill and Denton services, so (paths permitting!) a half-hourly service could be done with 2 units, or an hourly service with 1 unit. Thus it's potentially a slightly more resource efficient way of serving the Rose Hill branch, whilst offering increased connectivity.

It wouldn't be acceptable to remove Rose Hill's Manchester service as this is the primary demand. It would have to be additional.

What on earth route would it take? Via Guide Bridge? That wouldn't be spectacularly useful as it's incredibly roundabout. Everyone would continue to use the bus.

Edit: ah, a new chord is proposed to make it reasonably direct. It still couldn't sensibly replace Rose Hill to Manchester services, however, as this is the primary demand, and it'd go into Stockport the wrong way to sensibly continue to Manchester.

 

[WAO]

I remember using it (to Stalybridge) as a link in Reading - B'ham - Leeds XC journeys as it timed better for an early arrival than via Derby. With an improved TPE, the line could have more than a thin local use.

WAO

 

[cle]

80s patterns should not be used as what to do today. So many reopenings thrive now. Newer (typically electric) trains make a difference.

Look at the West London Line in the 90s, vs today.

What's to say that an orbital link in East Manchester couldn't be a great success? I would think something more regional, like Leeds-Birmingham via Stockport (semi-fast but with all Manc stations) could work as well as a Stalybridge shuttle. Stockport will have some capacity once HS2 opens and things move around. Certainly the route towards Stoke and Colwich will have capacity!

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

Thanks for sharing this. As someone who lives in Marple I always find it amusing looking up how long to get to Stockport station via one of the Marple stations when it's about 15 minutes in the car with no traffic.
I'd also much prefer to make my southbound connections at Stockport as opposed to changing at Manchester Piccadilly too.

I always thought the idea of an orbital link would work wonders!

 

[edwin_m]

Severe capacity issues with terminating at Stockport, and also with northbound trains making the right turn at Heaton Norris across both southbound tracks. It might be more feasible if the old plan to change the tracks in this area from down-down-up-up to down-up-down-up was ever revived.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for sharing this. As someone who lives in Marple I always find it amusing looking up how long to get to Stockport station via one of the Marple stations when it's about 15 minutes in the car with no traffic.
I'd also much prefer to make my southbound connections at Stockport as opposed to changing at Manchester Piccadilly too.

Why? I'd always go to Picc to get a seat as most trains start there.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why? I'd always go to Picc to get a seat as most trains start there.

Yeah, but from the South side of Manchester (Stockport, Marple or wherever ) travelling into Manchester and back out again is invariably a bit of a faff.

 

[Watershed]

Severe capacity issues with terminating at Stockport, and also with northbound trains making the right turn at Heaton Norris across both southbound tracks. It might be more feasible if the old plan to change the tracks in this area from down-down-up-up to down-up-down-up was ever revived.

Challenging, certainly, but not impossible. Really it's no different to the conflicting moves which occur at Slade Lane Jn all the time, which will in fact be reduced in number in the December timetable.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I have to say that this is a case of a solution looking for problem. The potential for local rail traffic between Stockport and Stalybridge is somewhat limited, because of the the geography of line. It doesn't serve Ashton-u-L (it could have done, but the OA & GB curve is now under Sainsbury's), Denton station is, err, remote from Denton (and buried alongside the M67 'ski jump') and Edgeley station in Stockport isn't convenient for the town centre. Reddish South is handy, but Reddish Lane is heavily bussed and delivers folk directly to Mersey Square. It would be far better to devote resources to the proposed 'tram-train' operation for Marple / Rose Hill. In the longer term, if Metrolink ever reaches Stockport from East Didsbury, it should be continued through Portwood to Bredbury to join up with the Marple / Rose Hill line there. Building a curve at Reddish Vale is sub-optimal to say the least, giving a very roundabout route between Marple and Stockport.

 

[swt_passenger]

The issue of where best to run the improved service to is an interesting one. Most transport networks in Britain are of a Hub and spoke approach based around the regional centre (in this case Manchester) as that is where greatest travel demand is expected to be. However politicians have increasingly become obsessed by the lack of radial connections. Whilst I can understand the need for improved public transport links between Stockport and Reddish & Marple I am not so convinced that there are masses of people wanting to travel from Stalybridge to Denton etc.

I think the point is valid, but isn’t there a terminology problem here, aren’t the existing hub and spoke lines the radial lines? Lines skirting round the outside are usually referred to as orbital?

 

[WAO]

The potential for local rail traffic between Stockport and Stalybridge is somewhat limited, because of the the geography of line.

Agreed.
But is there a wider potential, for say Wilmslow/Macclesfield (or even Crewe/Stoke) - Yorkshire direct?
WAO

 

[edwin_m]

Challenging, certainly, but not impossible. Really it's no different to the conflicting moves which occur at Slade Lane Jn all the time, which will in fact be reduced in number in the December timetable.

For each train making the move, it's worse than Slade Lane where only two tracks cross and there are some opportunities to avoid conflict by switching trains between tracks in different places. A train going towards Denton has to have gaps between trains at Heaton Norris on both Up tracks simultaneously, and if for any reason this is delayed, the train is blocking the Down Fast while it waits (or the Down Slow, but then the Down Fast has to be free too when the crossing move takes place). So one train making that move causes more potential disruption than one train crossing Slade Lane, and the total disruption would be less only because the crossing moves are less frequent.

Agreed.
But is there a wider potential, for say Wilmslow/Macclesfield (or even Crewe/Stoke) - Yorkshire direct?
WAO

Anyone making these journeys can do so with one change at Piccadilly, almost certainly quicker as well as more convenient than changing onto Stockport onto a fairly slow train and another change at Stalybridge.

 

[Mollman]

I think the point is valid, but isn’t there a terminology problem here, aren’t the existing hub and spoke lines the radial lines? Lines skirting round the outside are usually referred to as orbital?

Yeh sorry, got my terminology mixed up

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thinking historically to the days of yore, was there really any regular rail travelling made between Stockport and Stalybridge as a direct route in its own right rather than what might have occurred on a diversionary requirement on long-distance trains.?

 

[edwin_m]

Thinking historically to the days of yore, was there really any regular rail travelling made between Stockport and Stalybridge as a direct route in its own right rather than what might have occurred on a diversionary requirement on long-distance trains.?

Probably very little, though I would point out that there used to be longer-distance trains using the route, often as portions of trains from further south split off at Stockport to run to Huddersfield and beyond.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking historically to the days of yore, was there really any regular rail travelling made between Stockport and Stalybridge as a direct route in its own right rather than what might have occurred on a diversionary requirement on long-distance trains.?

The purpose of it was basically (give or take a smaller amount of local use of Denton/Reddish South) to connect southern lines running into Piccadilly with northern lines (e.g. TPE, Liverpool, Preston etc) running into Victoria. The Windsor Link moved these to Piccadilly, removing the need, though some are now creeping back (e.g. TPE) and so this becomes more important again.

 

[Efini92]

Severe capacity issues with terminating at Stockport, and also with northbound trains making the right turn at Heaton Norris across both southbound tracks. It might be more feasible if the old plan to change the tracks in this area from down-down-up-up to down-up-down-up was ever revived.

The only problem with that would be Heaton Norris and levenshulme would end up with one side served by the fast lines.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The only problem with that would be Heaton Norris and levenshulme would end up with one side served by the fast lines.

Heaton Chapel. (Heaton Norris was a different station, located near to the junction where the line to Guide Bridge via Denton branches off, and was closed in 1959).

 

[Efini92]

Heaton Chapel. (Heaton Norris was a different station, located near to the junction where the line to Guide Bridge via Denton branches off, and was closed in 1959).

Sorry I did mean chapel, it’s getting late.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This shouldn't be a train line if reopened, a Guide Bridge to Stockport tram train as the first part of an orbital GM tram train and a few additional stations at Whitehill St, Dane Bank (Windmill St) and Audenshaw (Corporation St) would help a lot with outer GM travel and Cheshire/West Mids to Yorks journeys as mentioned. Plus perhaps a future split level interchange at Reddish Vale to restore the lost rail link between the east of Met Stockport/a large swathe of east Manny and Stockport, the idea of a curve is likely TfGM entering crayonista territory.
The electrification from Heaton Norris to Guide Bridge junction could be done with Metrolink style 750V catenary.
NOTE TO MODS: This is not off-topic or speculative as TfGM have explored the option in a recent GM transport study: I provide it for your perusal if you wish here: https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93..._Manchester_Transport_Strategy_2040_final.pdf

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem that I foresee with these various aspirations is the required finance, as the Treasury will have now chopped down Sunak's magic money tree and are actively looking at ideas such as this and saying to proponents of such schemes...."Carry on, but you must fund it from your Council Tax funds"

 

[davyp]

With the proposed dramatic house building plan for High Lane, perhaps the best idea would be to reinstate the line from Rose Hill along the Middlewood Way to link with the Buxton Manchester one just to the North of Middlewood Level Crossing. this would allow a circular run from Manchester-Romiley-Rose Hill-HazelGrove-Stockport-Manchester (and the other way round) with a new station "High Lane".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With the proposed dramatic house building plan for High Lane, perhaps the best idea would be to reinstate the line from Rose Hill along the Middlewood Way to link with the Buxton Manchester one just to the North of Middlewood Level Crossing. this would allow a circular run from Manchester-Romiley-Rose Hill-HazelGrove-Stockport-Manchester (and the other way round) with a new station "High Lane".

Is it still the case that the rail line currently ending at Rose Hill Marple is one that was being considered for conversion to the Manchester Metrolink light rail system by TfGM?

 

[northwichcat]

Ah! Being a Londoner who never has any reason to travel on the line between Stockport and Guide Bridge, may I ask Mancunians if a regular service might attract worthwhile patronage from people in Reddish and Denton? It doesn't surprise me that a Parliamentary service isn't used much.

Now that North TransPennine services mainly use Victoria and services from Piccadilly towards West Yorkshire are generally stopping services, it would be useful for those living in South Manchester and Cheshire to be able to get a train from Stockport to Stalybridge and then pick up the TransPennine services there. Of course that relies on TransPennine stopping their fast services there. I recently looked at getting to Leeds from Knutsford by train and was shocked at how long the journey now is, compared to how long it used to be.