TFL Enforcement Officers

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Chriso

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I have seen groups of these uniformed staff on the network but they never appear to do much and thus appear a huge waste of money

Therw were some at West Ruislip a few weeks ago on the gateline but none stood by the ungated exit to the Chiltern platforms which lead to ungated exit off the Chiltern platforms and a free entry/exit on the tube (in five years of commuting from West Ruislip I have never seen any Chiltern or LU staff check tickets at this point) Are they even trained in revenue and can they issue penalty fares?

surely it is easy points like this that TFL could make a fortune if they actually bothered doing revenue properly and not always taking the easy option.
 
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Mojo

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The Transport Support & Enforcement Officers who are those in the blue uniforms are not there to check tickets and indeed they do not have any equipment to check tickets and are not authorised to do so. They are there to enforce the TfL Railway byelaws (which does include things like forcing through the ticket gates), as well as face covering regulations. They are empowered to issue fixed penalty notices under the face coverings regulations, as well as report customers for byelaw breaches, in addition to being trained to physically eject someone from the premises, or detain someone awaiting police attendance (subject to the laws that an ordinary member of the public can use).
 
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Chriso

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Very interesting. I did see a group of 4 surround the Ealing Common gates once. Do they have the power to detain gate jumpers/wide gate pushers?
 
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I saw some at King's Cross yesterday they didn't seem to do much but there was a lot of BTP two of whom was talking to a passenger who wasn't very happy!
 

bramling

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I saw some at King's Cross yesterday they didn't seem to do much but there was a lot of BTP two of whom was talking to a passenger who wasn't very happy!

They were at Euston this afternoon monitoring people going in. Picking people out at random, as there were too many without masks to get everyone.

They’d gone by the time I was going in.

One does wonder how ethical it is to stick people in a packed booking hall picking people out of a crowd. Not much care for the staff’s welfare from Khan.
 

Jonny

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The Transport Support & Enforcement Officers who are those in the blue uniforms are not there to check tickets and indeed they do not have any equipment to check tickets and are not authorised to do so. They are there to enforce the TfL Railway byelaws (which does include things like forcing through the ticket gates), as well as face covering regulations. They are empowered to issue fixed penalty notices under the face coverings regulations, as well as report customers for byelaw breaches, in addition to being trained to physically eject someone from the premises, or detain someone awaiting police attendance (subject to the laws that an ordinary member of the public can use).
I thought that laws that a member of the public can use to detain were generally either-way offences?

Very interesting. I did see a group of 4 surround the Ealing Common gates once. Do they have the power to detain gate jumpers/wide gate pushers?
Maybe, but it is only really worthwhile if they are seriously considering going for charging (no pun intended) the suspect with Fraud.

They were at Euston this afternoon monitoring people going in. Picking people out at random, as there were too many without masks to get everyone.

They’d gone by the time I was going in.

One does wonder how ethical it is to stick people in a packed booking hall picking people out of a crowd. Not much care for the staff’s welfare from Khan.
Logistically awkward in a packed booking hall, and those picked out only had to claim exemption. If it is a 'packed booking hall', there is not going to be much room without jamming the whole system up, so you're going to have to take their word.
 

tgsh2011

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It is indictable offences: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/15/section/110 that anyone is able to arrest under (commonly referred to as a Citizens arrest).
It is not quite that simple. Either way offences include indictable offences (e.g. Theft, Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm etc), the key difference between a constable's power of arrest and that of an ordinary member of the public, is that constable can arrest on suspicion whereas an ordinary member of the public cannot. Therefore, the enthusiastic citizen has to be pretty certain an actual offence has been committed by the person they are arresting (or that the offence is in progress) otherwise they risk a civil claim for false imprisonment. For example, Mr Citizen arrests Scally Jack for what Mr Citizen sees as a theft. Magistrates' or a jury subsequently acquit Scally Jack and Mr Citizen then potentially faces civil claim for false imprisonment, whereas if Inspector Sands had arrested Scally Jack, then almost certainly the arrest would be lawful as the threshold for reasonable suspicion is actually very low. Moral of the story, is that in almost all circumstances, Mr Citizen is best keeping his enthusiasm in check, and this is before one considers the potential for a violent reaction by Scally Jack.
 

Watershed

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It is not quite that simple. Either way offences include indictable offences (e.g. Theft, Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm etc), the key difference between a constable's power of arrest and that of an ordinary member of the public, is that constable can arrest on suspicion whereas an ordinary member of the public cannot. Therefore, the enthusiastic citizen has to be pretty certain an actual offence has been committed by the person they are arresting (or that the offence is in progress) otherwise they risk a civil claim for false imprisonment. For example, Mr Citizen arrests Scally Jack for what Mr Citizen sees as a theft. Magistrates' or a jury subsequently acquit Scally Jack and Mr Citizen then potentially faces civil claim for false imprisonment, whereas if Inspector Sands had arrested Scally Jack, then almost certainly the arrest would be lawful as the threshold for reasonable suspicion is actually very low. Moral of the story, is that in almost all circumstances, Mr Citizen is best keeping his enthusiasm in check, and this is before one considers the potential for a violent reaction by Scally Jack.
That is not quite accurate.

There is no difference in the level of suspicion required to lawfully make a "citizen's arrest" vs an ordinary police arrest. In both cases the standard is that there must be "reasonable grounds for [suspicion]".

So in both cases, the citizen or police officer's suspicions could turn out to be wrong, and yet they would not have committed any offence or tort.

Obviously it is highly inadvisable to go around arresting people as a member of the public, as you do not have the training that police officers have to know when reasonable grounds for suspicion are likely to exist. Let alone training on how to physically carry out the arrest.

The citizen's arrest is also limited in when it can be applied, e.g. it can only be applied where there isn't a police officer that could do it, and the person can only be held for as long as it takes for the police to arrive.
 

PeterC

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I have seen groups of these uniformed staff on the network but they never appear to do much and thus appear a huge waste of money

Therw were some at West Ruislip a few weeks ago on the gateline but none stood by the ungated exit to the Chiltern platforms which lead to ungated exit off the Chiltern platforms and a free entry/exit on the tube (in five years of commuting from West Ruislip I have never seen any Chiltern or LU staff check tickets at this point) Are they even trained in revenue and can they issue penalty fares?

surely it is easy points like this that TFL could make a fortune if they actually bothered doing revenue properly and not always taking the easy option.
I don't know about West Ruislip but at Walthamstow Central you could always tell when these guys would be at the gateline as there would be a couple of burly men in mufti hanging around at the bottom of the escalator to catch those who doubled back. I never had any reason to attract their attention so I don't know if they were TfL, BTP or MPS. Next time check for the lurkers in civvies watching for anybody making a quick change of direction.
 

Mojo

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I don't know about West Ruislip but at Walthamstow Central you could always tell when these guys would be at the gateline as there would be a couple of burly men in mufti hanging around at the bottom of the escalator to catch those who doubled back. I never had any reason to attract their attention so I don't know if they were TfL, BTP or MPS. Next time check for the lurkers in civvies watching for anybody making a quick change of direction.
I think you may be confusing these with another grade, most likely Revenue Control staff employed by London Underground. Those being talked about in this thread always work in uniform, and do not engage in revenue activities, they also are employed by Transport for London.
 

alexjames10

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So what are these people employed to do?

A gaggle of three were stood around the entrance of Finchley Road station this pm. I initially thought that they were doing mask enforcement work. They were not. Given that they were far away from the gate line they could not have been doing revenue protection work. The fools were merely yapping with each other and doing nothing productive whatsoever. If any TfL exec is reading this, perhaps we might get an explanation of why such people are employed to do nothing more than socializing with each other. Nice work if you can get it but it’s a waste of TfL’s money.

I will add that the above was observed over a 20 minute period. I exited the station and returned later. The starting and finishing positions were identical.
 

Ralph Ayres

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So what are these people employed to do?

A gaggle of three were stood around the entrance of Finchley Road station this pm. I initially thought that they were doing mask enforcement work. They were not. Given that they were far away from the gate line they could not have been doing revenue protection work. The fools were merely yapping with each other and doing nothing productive whatsoever. If any TfL exec is reading this, perhaps we might get an explanation of why such people are employed to do nothing more than socializing with each other. Nice work if you can get it but it’s a waste of TfL’s money.

I will add that the above was observed over a 20 minute period. I exited the station and returned later. The starting and finishing positions were identical.
On the other hand I encountered a group working at North Greenwich just after mask-wearing had been made a legal requirement again, who were very effectively preventing anyone travelling maskless without good reason from travelling. There were some extremely disgruntled oiks heading noisily back up the escalators out of the station.
 

dan5324

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On the other hand I encountered a group working at North Greenwich just after mask-wearing had been made a legal requirement again, who were very effectively preventing anyone travelling maskless without good reason from travelling. There were some extremely disgruntled oiks heading noisily back up the escalators out of the station.
Well those oiks clearly went very bright then. All you have to do is lie and say you’re exempt.
 

londonbridge

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That is not quite accurate.

There is no difference in the level of suspicion required to lawfully make a "citizen's arrest" vs an ordinary police arrest. In both cases the standard is that there must be "reasonable grounds for [suspicion]".

So in both cases, the citizen or police officer's suspicions could turn out to be wrong, and yet they would not have committed any offence or tort.

Obviously it is highly inadvisable to go around arresting people as a member of the public, as you do not have the training that police officers have to know when reasonable grounds for suspicion are likely to exist. Let alone training on how to physically carry out the arrest.

The citizen's arrest is also limited in when it can be applied, e.g. it can only be applied where there isn't a police officer that could do it, and the person can only be held for as long as it takes for the police to arrive.
Incident in a local convienience store a few weeks back, a shoplifter was just stuffing multiple bottles of wine inside his big coat, the manager and another staff member tried to stop him and it turned nasty with the shoplifter trying to hit the manager with a bottle. They eventually overpowered him and got him on the floor in the middle of the aisle and just sat on him pinning him down (as he was still struggling), I heard later it took twenty five minutes for police to attend.
 

Hadders

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Incident in a local convienience store a few weeks back, a shoplifter was just stuffing multiple bottles of wine inside his big coat, the manager and another staff member tried to stop him and it turned nasty with the shoplifter trying to hit the manager with a bottle. They eventually overpowered him and got him on the floor in the middle of the aisle and just sat on him pinning him down (as he was still struggling), I heard later it took twenty five minutes for police to attend.
That's pretty good from the police! They often don't attend at all for shoplifting incidents.
 

Goldfish62

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One does wonder how ethical it is to stick people in a packed booking hall picking people out of a crowd. Not much care for the staff’s welfare from Khan.
Eh? He doesn't actually run TfL on a day-to-day basis you know.

Apart from standing in ticket halls how else are enforcement officers supposed to enforce face masks?
 

Hadders

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I would of thought that the aggravating factors caused their attendance.

If someone's actually been detained, I would expect them to turn up
Trust me, I have extensive experience in dealing with shoplifting incidents in stores and the police frequently don't turn up, even when there are aggravating factors or when someone has been detained.
 

bramling

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Eh? He doesn't actually run TfL on a day-to-day basis you know.

The obsession with masks emanates very much from Khan. I believe TfL is the only transport operator who was both mandating and attempting to enforce them, between July and Omicron. So, yes, it's down to him.


Apart from standing in ticket halls how else are enforcement officers supposed to enforce face masks?

How about not at all, which is what others have chosen to do?
 

Goldfish62

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The obsession with masks emanates very much from Khan. I believe TfL is the only transport operator who was both mandating and attempting to enforce them, between July and Omicron. So, yes, it's down to him.




How about not at all, which is what others have chosen to do?
Well, you're obviously some sort of anti-mask science denier so there's no point me in me trying to explain. :D
 

BJames

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Well, you're obviously some sort of anti-mask science denier so there's no point me in me trying to explain. :D
I think @bramling was attempting to point out that London was an outlier here - looking at all the other TOCs and public transport operators, not one of them chose the extra expense of people standing in ticket halls, occasionally challenging people when this wasn't a legal requirement.

I don't think it is fair to accuse someone of being anti-science when they are pointing out a fact that others have chosen not to spend money (wastefully, if you read some of the replies on this very thread about how they are enforcing this) while TfL, cash strapped as it is, has (and until Plan B, they couldn't fine people either so no income gained from this) - this is entirely from Khan.
 

bramling

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Well, you're obviously some sort of anti-mask science denier so there's no point me in me trying to explain. :D

Even if one works on the assumption that anti-splash cloths are the best thing since sliced bread, it’s still remiss to put staff in a position of enforcing them. As far as I’m aware no other transport undertaking has taken it upon itself to do this, nor shops. Evidently these undertakings value their staff more than Khan. It’s notable that he hasn’t bothered to issue FFP3 masks to the enforcement staff, nor to anyone else for that matter.

So one can be forgiven for wondering whether this is all about Khan, and nothing about anything else.

Then there’s the issue of cost, and whether it’s a valuable use of the limited money TfL has available to it at the present time, especially as there is nothing to stop people removing their anti-splash cloth once past the booking hall, which from observation is what many people are choosing to do.
 
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yorkie

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Well, you're obviously some sort of anti-mask science denier so there's no point me in me trying to explain. :D
I don't think @bramling or anyone else on this forum will deny that correctly worn (and stored, when not in use) tight-fitting FFP3 masks offers excellent protection against virus transmission?

Now if you are going to argue that flimsy, loose fitting masks, which are not designed to filter aerosol particles are effective, I refer you to this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ating-of-their-use.219985/page-8#post-5243882

If you have anything to add to that thread (that's not already been covered), let us know (by reporting the last post in the thread and posting a draft of what you'd like to post) and we can unlock it, to continue the discussion there :)
 

Yew

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Then there’s the issue of cost, and whether it’s a valuable use of the limited money TfL has available to it at the present time, especially as there is nothing to stop people removing their anti-splash cloth once past the booking hall, which from observation is what many people are choosing to do.
Indeed, I'd love to see the cost-benefit analysis of this decision. Even if masks make an effect, it's certainly not on LU's bottom line.
 

Jonny

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Even if one works on the assumption that anti-splash cloths are the best thing since sliced bread, it’s still remiss to put staff in a position of enforcing them. As far as I’m aware no other transport undertaking has taken it upon itself to do this, nor shops. Evidently these undertakings value their staff more than Khan. It’s notable that he hasn’t bothered to issue FFP3 masks to the enforcement staff, nor to anyone else for that matter.

So one can be forgiven for wondering whether this is all about Khan, and nothing about anything else.

Then there’s the issue of cost, and whether it’s a valuable use of the limited money TfL has available to it at the present time, especially as there is nothing to stop people removing their anti-splash cloth once past the booking hall, which from observation is what many people are choosing to do.
Funny you should say that, because TfL is likely just trying it on to raise money. Uniquely, TfL gets to pocket the revenue from the FPNs issued on its network, so the calculus is difficult.

Apart from standing in ticket halls how else are enforcement officers supposed to enforce face masks?
Yes, it would be rather difficult. Perhaps you could acknowledge that you need continuous enforcement but can only do spot checks, which itself makes it logistically near-enforceable. Then you have the problem that even a surgical type mask that is up to spec (and that is another matter in itself) is only of limited value.
 

jumble

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Well, you're obviously some sort of anti-mask science denier so there's no point me in me trying to explain. :D
Please could you explain to stupid old me what difference it makes wearing a mask or not on a completely empty open air platform.
I am not very fond of being treated like I am 12 years old by the likes of Sadiq Kahn
 

3rd rail land

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Please could you explain to stupid old me what difference it makes wearing a mask or not on a completely empty open air platform.
I am not very fond of being treated like I am 12 years old by the likes of Sadiq Kahn
I also don't understand why wearing a mask on an open air platform is at all beneficial. In fact didn't some scientist say we shouldn't wear masks outdoors as moisture will build up on the mask making it less effective?

My local London Overground station has open air platforms and I do not put a mask on until the train is in the platform and I am about to board. I didn't even bother with a mask on trains when Sadiq made it a condition of carriage. I have seen many others do the same on both points. The station in question only has 1 member of staff on duty at any one time and they have sensibly not challenged anyone, at least not that I've seen.
 

Mojo

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The legislation (as opposed to TfL conditions of carriage) doesn’t require masks to be worn on open air platforms or indeed on most platforms covered by a canopy it probably isn’t needed. By the letter of the law they would however be required in ticket halls and thinking of the layout of LU stations I can’t think of many LU stations where you can access a platform without one being required, ones off the top of my head are Chorleywood car park exit, Chalfont station approach exit, West Finchley wheelchair / peak hours entrance to the Southbound platform and Epping wheelchair / peak hours entrance to platform 1.
 
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