TfL supposedly interested in taking over Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise services

[explnemeses]

In the Great Local Railways Briefing by Rail Partners (Group of TOCs and Freight Companies), it say the following in footnote 11:

[Splitting out and devolving existing franchises] may be most relevant for the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise in London, currently due to terminate next year, given that Transport for London already has the willingness and capability to take on the management of those services.

Does anyone have any more information about this? Because I couldn't find any other mentions of TfL being interested in TSGN services, other than a statement on Wikipedia without a citation.

 

[anthony263]

I remember tfl wanting to take over the great northern services out of Moorgate but I think it was rejected by the government at the time

 

[thenorthern]

Given that the majority of the services operate outside of Greater London for at least some of their journey I think it would be a simple no from Westminster.

Given Great British Railways will soon be taking over the franchise in 4 years time anyway I can't see the idea even being taken seriously by Westminster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that the majority of the services operate outside of Greater London for at least some of their journey I think it would be a simple no from Westminster.

Reading isn't in Greater London either. And what Thameslink does is largely similar to what the Lizzie does...

 

[explnemeses]

Given Great British Railways will soon be taking over the franchise in 4 years time anyway I can't see the idea even being taken seriously by Westminster.

I mean, the whole document is about how services that are soon going to be taken over by GBR could be devolved instead, so that the services and staff don't have to be transferred twice (once from existing TOCs to GBR, then again from GBR to the local transport authority).

 

[Horizon22]

Reading isn't in Greater London either. And what Thameslink does is largely similar to what the Lizzie does...

Sure, but Thameslink and Southern goes much further out and is a lot more of a complex operation.

Thameslink operates over 5 Network Rail routes and has multiple southern branches. The Elizabeth line is effectively 2 branches on East (Abbey Wood and Shenfield) and 2 on West (Heathrow and Reading).

What is more likely is taking over some specific routes such as Great Northern or the Sutton Loop or the Blackfriars terminators etc. When GBR comes to fruition, it may be deemed these are better split into Overground or some other operation.

TfL taking over much of SE metro routes towards Dartford has often been mentioned as another example. I don't think there's much more than someone looking at railway maps and going "this could happen" but there's a lot more operational, strategic, economic and political issues that would need to be resolved before any of this comes close to reality.

 

[waterboo]

No thank you! We don't need the tube map being more complex than what it currently is !!

 

[thenorthern]

Reading isn't in Greater London either. And what Thameslink does is largely similar to what the Lizzie does...

Fair point although Thameslink operates much further outside of London than the Lizzie line or London Overground do.

I mean, the whole document is about how services that are soon going to be taken over by GBR could be devolved instead, so that the services and staff don't have to be transferred twice (once from existing TOCs to GBR, then again from GBR to the local transport authority).

I think some of the non TFL rail services currently operating that largely operate within Greater London such as East Croydon to Watford Junction, London Victoria to East Croydon as well as some of the South Eastern routes such as the services to Bexleyheath/Sidcup and possibly the Stansted and Gatwick express services will come under TFL control in the future.

Other than that I can't see others going to TFL. At the end of the day the Department for Transport is accountable to all the people of the United Kingdom (including London) while TFL is only accountable to the people of London. Realistically I can see the TfW services that operate entirely within England such as the Crewe to Chester shuttle/the Crewe to Shrewsbury local service and maybe even the Manchester to Cardiff Central service coming under the control of the DfT rather than Transport for Wales for the same reason.

 

[liam456]

I remember tfl wanting to take over the great northern services out of Moorgate but I think it was rejected by the government at the time

I'd quite like my 4tph off peak on the Hertford Loop back please, and if the government won't allow Great Northern to do it, TfL will.

 

[paul1609]

The current GTR franchise has revenue roughly equivalent to LNER + AWC + 1/2 of GWR, given that Welsh and Scottish services are devolved. TFL + GTR would be a bigger concern than Great British Railways.

 

[cactustwirly]

Reading isn't in Greater London either. And what Thameslink does is largely similar to what the Lizzie does...

Not really Brighton to Cambridge and Horsham to Peterborough are much further out.
The trains are based in Three Bridges and Bedford which is nowhere near London.

Elizabeth line is like the Rainham to Luton trains tbh

 

[swt_passenger]

No thank you! We don't need the tube map being more complex than what it currently is !!

We probably do, because as we are constantly reminded millions of people allegedly think their rail service doesn’t exist if it’s not on the tube map…

 

[Horizon22]

We probably do, because as we are constantly reminded millions of people allegedly think their rail service doesn’t exist if it’s not on the tube map…

I also don't think whether it makes the Tube map "more complex" is a valid argument (even if tongue-in-cheek) as to whether TfL are best placed to run a service over GTR/Thameslink/[insert TOC here] or not.

 

[A S Leib]

Only one of the four proposed Crossrail 2 southern termini's in Greater London, with Ewell (West), Epsom, Thames Ditton, Hampton Court and the last four stations on the Shepperton branch being in Surrey. Given that that would be TfL if ever built (unless TfL no longer exists by then for some reason), I'd be surprised if those bits were considered too far out for TfL.

 

[Horizon22]

Only one of the four proposed Crossrail 2 southern termini's in Greater London, with Ewell (West), Epsom, Thames Ditton, Hampton Court and the last four stations on the Shepperton branch being in Surrey. Given that that would be TfL if ever built (unless TfL no longer exists by then for some reason), I'd be surprised if those bits were considered too far out for TfL.

I think there's a big difference between the fringe of London with natural metro termini and the likes of Brighton / Beford / Peterborough.

Crossrail was only intended to go as far as Maidenhead until it was recognised it was operationally more effective to continue to Reading to take over the GWR metro service.

 

[generalnerd]

I remember tfl wanting to take over the great northern services out of Moorgate but I think it was rejected by the government at the time

I think that was a great loss… it should really have been apart of TFL, and could have been an underground line!! (Albeit with mainline trains painted like underground trains)

 

[Horizon22]

I think that was a great loss… it should really have been apart of TFL, and could have been an underground line!! (Albeit with mainline trains painted like underground trains)

It did used to be (partly) until 1975.

 

[choochoochoo]

Would/could it be done in a similar way to the MTR (soon to be GTS) contract for the elizabeth line and arriva for overground ?

 

[Failed Unit]

Editing to make it clear this was the plan during the previous government. Supported by the local MP Grant Shaaps. Then when he became transport secretary he did a massive u-turn. No idea why as this was pre-covid.

At the time this was looked at last time the service was every 15 mins.

I think send over the Great Northern 717 operated services (Moorgate - Stevenage / Welwyn Garden City) would be a good thing. If it gets both routes back to 15 minute frequency off-peak. Return Ally Pally to Moorgate back to turn up and go. I think the current 30 minute frequency north of Ally Pally on both branches is choking off demand. (If they do hopefully it will get rid of the Ally Pally stop on the Cambridge - London)

I will be clear this may never happen as WGC crew also do London - Cambridge so if the past plan was to resurface it would have a few challenges

 

[generalnerd]

It did used to be (partly) until 1975.

Yeah, but they should have done it again, especially with the subpar service GTR delivers

 

[bramling]

In the Great Local Railways Briefing by Rail Partners (Group of TOCs and Freight Companies), it mentions in footnote 11 that "[Splitting out and devolving existing franchises] may be most relevant for the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise in London, currently due to terminate next year, given that Transport for London already has the willingness and capability to take on the management of those services". Does anyone have any more information about this? Because I couldn't find any other mentions of TfL being interested in TSGN services, other than a statement on Wikipedia without a citation.

TFL would be better getting their existing house in order before looking to expand the empire. Several fleets falling apart, stations falling apart, SSR resignalling into its third decade, people killed in a tram crash, replacement DLR trains running late, seemingly constant RAIB investigations … just to reel off a few obvious issues.

Not a great resume…

 

[David Bullock]

TL and Elizabeth line are both RER-style express metro services. I think it makes sense for them to be operated by a devolved transport authority, although Brighton and Peterborough clearly aren’t London.

Another name for this Network of SouthEastern commuter services would be good, just a shame nothing like that has ever existed successfully before

 

[talldave]

No thank you! We don't need the tube map being more complex than what it currently is !!

Or any more ludicrous station screens that fail to show train departure times. It's like transport for people without a brain.

 

[SynthD]

How much are we meant to read into ‘splitting’? Is that breaking up the multi brand concession into single brand concessions, or taking the inner suburban from a single brand, leaving them with outer suburban? Thameslink won’t be split up.

TfL is already working with various Home Counties, and has their permission for various extensions (eg Elizabeth line to Dartford). This won’t go ahead without the relevant county’s partnership.

We do need a simpler tube map, but it should be all services, including boat and superloop, within zones 1 and 2.

 

[Thirteen]

TFL would be better getting their existing house in order before looking to expand the empire. Several fleets falling apart, stations falling apart, SSR resignalling into its third decade, people killed in a tram crash, replacement DLR trains running late, seemingly constant RAIB investigations … just to reel off a few obvious issues.

Not a great resume…

TfL isn't a failure like you want to make it out to be.

 

[generalnerd]

Another name for this Network of SouthEastern commuter services would be good, just a shame nothing like that has ever existed successfully before

I know! You could even have a British flag inspired toothpaste like livery…!

 

[Non Multi]

From my experience TfL rail don't offer: trains with toilets, trains with working toilets, optical e-tickets and the gate lines that can read them, luggage racks, printed timetable boards, bins on trains, the same delay repay scheme as DfT services, short notice ticket acceptance with non-tfl bus operators...

 

[Russel]

TfL isn't a failure like you want to make it out to be.

I agree, TfL can't be described as a failure, but it does have serious issues that cannot be ignored.

That said, most of the issues are the result or side effects of underfunding from Westminster over the last few years.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

From my experience TfL rail don't offer: trains with toilets, trains with working toilets, optical e-tickets and the gate lines that can read them, luggage racks, printed timetable boards, bins on trains, the same delay repay scheme as DfT services, short notice ticket acceptance with non-tfl bus operators...

E-tickets can easily be a thing on the taken over lines (can the Moorgate line even have e-tickets now?)
It might encourage TfL to get their act tickets and start accepting them elsewhere.

 

[Transilien]

No thank you! We don't need the tube map being more complex than what it currently is !!

The tube map needs a redesign anyway.

Would/could it be done in a similar way to the MTR (soon to be GTS) contract for the elizabeth line and arriva for overground ?

I think it would be a good idea for GBR to take over the concession for the overground as it will maintain the lines anyway.