The East Midlands (EMR & XC) overcrowding situation - what are the causes and can anything be done?

[dontteleport]

Hello all,

Pre-2021, I always found EMR to be an above-average TOC, trains were generally kept clean (even if the 222 interiors are a bit knackered) and had plenty of space. Meanwhile, CrossCountry/XC have been awful for as long as I can remember, especially on the Birmingham-Peterborough route that I regularly use- dirty 170s with missing or broken seat cushions, some (not all) very rude and agitated staff, and worst of all was the shocking overcrowding, especially with the 2-car sets (although the upgrade to 3-car hasn't really helped much). From my (limited, non-industry) knowledge of that route, part of the problem is that XC does not operate the stations that would need upgrading to accommodate longer rolling stock - but then not operating any stations seems to be part of why XC is so poor - why was this arrangement even allowed to begin with? It seems like the franchise agreements have allowed XC to shirk key responsibilities of a TOC that clearly have an impact on the quality of service they can provide. Maybe it's just my vengefullness from the amount of misery and inconvenience XC has caused me, but I'd like to see their network absorbed into other relevant TOCs then re-evaluated. Anyway, from my experience, XC have always been a bottom-of-the-pile TOC, but certainly not EMR.

Now things have changed: EMR seems to have stooped to XC's level, with literally every journey I've taken on a meridian being standing-room only for standard-class passengers, while 2 or even 3 first-class carriages remain largely empty. I wouldn't blame anybody choosing to sit in those areas without a valid ticket, especially given the fairly long intercity journeys, it's almost offensive to expect passengers paying that much to stand (yes, I know per CoC ticket≠seat, but that doesn't make constant, routine overcrowding acceptable). Meanwhile, the (far too early) last NOT-LEI service at 23:20 is now operated by a 3-car 170, the likes of which gets so overcrowded on Fridays and weekends that I've witnessed a passanger suffer a hyperventilation attack that caused the service to be cancelled at Beeston, and at NOT, I've regularly seen passengers genuinely unable to board as they physically cannot fit any more pax on the train. For a final service of the evening for which passengers have paid, this is unacceptable. Especially given the availability of longer rolling stock in the form of 222s and 180s. All of these critical overcrowding situations are regular occurences on the post-pandemic EMR routes in the Leicester-Nottingham-Derby area, both regional and intercity. Why withdraw the HST sets if clearly capacity is an issue? Can't be disability access legislation because there are still HST sets in regular use of ScotRail, XC and GWR, or if it is then that's clearly a case of 'the dog ate my homework'.

I appreciate this post so far is a little meandering and difficult to answer, so I'll boil it down to a few key questions:

- Why has overcrowding become so much worse on the EMR intercity routes since the end of the pandemic (compared to pre-pandemic)?

- Why have XC not been stripped of their franchise, despite years of appalling service and bad PR, yet other operators (e.g.SouthEastern) have faced drastic action for an overall far better level of service?

- How do we feel about a version of delay repay for severely overcrowded services? Or indeed, a requirement to get ticketed passengers to their destination when they physically cannot board the last, overcrowded service of the night? (this may already be the case, I'm not an industry insider or expert by any means so do enlighten me)

Would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

 

[WAB]

Meanwhile, the (far too early) last NOT-LEI service at 23:20 is now operated by a 3-car 170, the likes of which gets so overcrowded on Fridays and weekends that I've witnessed a passanger suffer a hyperventilation attack that caused the service to be cancelled at Beeston, and at NOT, I've regularly seen passengers genuinely unable to board as they physically cannot fit any more pax on the train. For a final service of the evening for which passengers have paid, this is unacceptable.

Simplistically, there aren't enough DMUs to go around - consistently a case of money not being available and the political will not being there. However, this is not an excuse for the last trains of the day to be 3-car especially as later last trains on many routes have been ditched.

Why withdraw the HST sets if clearly capacity is an issue?

They were not cheap, and not accessible. HSTs on GWR, XC and Scotrail were refurbished to be accessible, but the East Midlands fleet wasn't.

- Why have XC not been stripped of their franchise, despite years of appalling service and bad PR, yet other operators (e.g.SouthEastern) have faced drastic action for an overall far better level of service?

Money and political will. Everyone has known for the last 15 or so years that XC needed a much larger fleet, but the money and political will (both needed from the DfT) hasn't been there. All the TOCs are micromanaged by the DfT now, so the current situation is probably accepted as reasonable by the civil servants and ministers. XC doesn't serve London, and has always been bad so there isn't so much of an obvious decline.

a requirement to get ticketed passengers to their destination when they physically cannot board the last, overcrowded service of the night?

I believe it already is?

 

[RailWonderer]

- Why has overcrowding become so much worse on the EMR intercity routes since the end of the pandemic (compared to pre-pandemic)?

EMR were forced to get rid of their HSTs and in return only recieved a few 180s so what you have are many shortformed Meridian diagrams that used to run doubled up.

- Why have XC not been stripped of their franchise, despite years of appalling service and bad PR, yet other operators (e.g.SouthEastern) have faced drastic action for an overall far better level of service?

Since the early 2000s and the end of loco hauled stock, XC has been overcrowded, as said above, so the govt are used to hearing about it and see XC largely as a secondary operation compared to the London serving TOCs. Most of their network is shared with many other operators and they run very long end to end journeys which can be and are delayed at different points en-route. Unless you shortened XC routes, you won't see an improvement in reliability but some would lose long through services. XC will never be one of the best operators though it has plenty of scope to improve.

- How do we feel about a version of delay repay for severely overcrowded services? Or indeed, a requirement to get ticketed passengers to their destination when they physically cannot board the last, overcrowded service of the night? (this may already be the case, I'm not an industry insider or expert by any means so do enlighten me)

This would be at the discretion of the guard who also decides whether or not first can be declassified. If the guard submits a report to the ToC about the state of the service they ran, I don't see why such a system wouldn't work. I've seen first declassified on services where there were still a few seats in standard left yet when it was full and standing the guards refused to declassify.

 

[ChrisC]

Meanwhile, the (far too early) last NOT-LEI service at 23:20 is now operated by a 3-car 170, the likes of which gets so overcrowded on Fridays and weekends that I've witnessed a passanger suffer a hyperventilation attack that caused the service to be cancelled at Beeston, and at NOT, I've regularly seen passengers genuinely unable to board as they physically cannot fit any more pax on the train.

Try travelling on the Robin Hood Line between Mansfield and Nottingham on a Saturday afternoon these days, especially if there are some local football matches on. The service was cut during covid by half from 2tph to just 1tph and even before the cuts it was standing room only. One 3 car 170 an hour instead of a 2 car 156 every 30 minutes is quite a reduction for what were already overcrowded trains.

It’s just as bad if travelling between Nottingham and Sheffield and Manchester, especially on a Saturday morning when the trains are regularly short formed to just two carriages. Trying to board at Alfreton or Chesterfield can be very difficult. The Northern 2 car Class 195 trains are also very overcrowded travelling south from Leeds to Nottingham on a Saturday morning. I’m afraid I have given up on travelling on local services on Saturdays.

 

[Llandudno]

Try travelling on the Robin Hood Line between Mansfield and Nottingham on a Saturday afternoon these days, especially if there are some local football matches on. The service was cut during covid by half from 2tph to just 1tph and even before the cuts it was standing room only. One 3 car 170 an hour instead of a 2 car 156 every 30 minutes is quite a reduction for what were already overcrowded trains.

It’s just as bad if travelling between Nottingham and Sheffield and Manchester, especially on a Saturday morning when the trains are regularly short formed to just two carriages. Trying to board at Alfreton or Chesterfield can be very difficult. The Northern 2 car Class 195 trains are also very overcrowded travelling south from Leeds to Nottingham on a Saturday morning. I’m afraid I have given up on travelling on local services on Saturdays.

The Northern service between Nottingham and Leeds is very popular, hard to believe that no such service existed 7-8 years ago!

Should, of course be 3 or 4 cars but unbelievably won’t fit in the platform at Leeds station!

 

[RobShipway]

Admittedly, hopefully within the next year it may come to an end, but try travelling on 47 year old three car EMU units on a day when Brighton & Hove Albion are playing at home!

Now, I am not saying that this is what is going to happen, but it is more of a suggestion.

Rather than EMR getting rid of the 5 car class 222 units, I would suggest that these once the class 810 have started operations are used on services such as the Norwich - Liverpool Lime Street and Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street.

The problem will come that as I think some have suggested that 5 car trains though on the routes mentioned, maybe too long for some platforms.

With regards XC, this is where as has been said on many threads, the Avanti West Coast class 221 units should pass to XC once the introduction of class 805 & 807 units has been completed. These class 221 trains will need the tilt mechanism disabled as per the XC class 221 trains, but working alongside existing class 220/221 units should give XC more capacity.

Again as has been said in many threads, the 5 or 6 7 carriage class 222 units should replace the XC HST trains.

 

[Energy]

EMR were forced to get rid of their HSTs and in return only recieved a few 180s so what you have are many shortformed Meridian diagrams that used to run doubled up.

The 360s also helped. Should be much better when the 810s are finally in service with their high standard class capacity.

 

[tbtc]

literally every journey I've taken on a meridian being standing-room only for standard-class passengers, while 2 or even 3 first-class carriages remain largely empty

The number of First Class carriages on these trains hasn’t changed (since Midland Mainline days?), so that’s not a “new” problem

As Abellio ordered the 810s, there’s no incentive to spend anything on changing the seats on the 222s

All of these critical overcrowding situations are regular occurences on the post-pandemic EMR routes in the Leicester-Nottingham-Derby area, both regional and intercity

I’m surprised that you list the regional routes too

Whilst the East Midlands - London services have seen a slight reduction in seating (some 222s freed up due to Corby electrification minus the scrapping of the HSTs but with a small number of 180s joining), the regional side has seen quite an increase (two/three coach 170s replacing much older single/two coach Sprinters) - maybe that’s more noticeable in the places that previously had to make do with solo 153s though

Why withdraw the HST sets if clearly capacity is an issue? Can't be disability access legislation because there are still HST sets in regular use of ScotRail, XC and GWR, or if it is then that's clearly a case of 'the dog ate my homework'

To keep them going, you’d need to have spent a lot of money on upgrading them

EMR could have spent a fortune on squeezing a couple more years out of the HSTs, but instead they are ordering dozens of 5x24m 810s

Look at the Scotrail fiasco, where they’ve had years of delay and can still only get beyond single figures of diagrams HST operated (despite having twenty five sets!)… GWR are scrapping their HSTs… I doubt the XC ones will still be running this time next year…

I’d rather be in the EMR position than a Scotrail passenger who’s expected to put up with these unreliable trains until 2030!

- Why has overcrowding become so much worse on the EMR intercity routes since the end of the pandemic (compared to pre-pandemic)?

I don’t know, maybe ordinary people adore those “Miles” adverts more than enthusiasts do… The number of seats hasn’t changed much (see above point about Corby electrification/ 180s… The HSTs were mainly used in peak services and the inefficient Nottingham fasts - where sets had to occupy a St Pancras platform for sixty five minutes because the paths didn’t match up well enough)

(Some sets have seen carriages swapped about but that shouldn’t have affected the overall capacity)

- Why have XC not been stripped of their franchise, despite years of appalling service and bad PR, yet other operators (e.g.SouthEastern) have faced drastic action for an overall far better level of service?

In the eyes of the Government(s), XC haven’t done anything wrong

We can moan all we want about underfloor engines or smelly toilets but XC have delivered what they agreed with the DfT - the Voyagers, the timetable, the lack of capacity increase… All of these need to be paid for by Government

The Northern service between Nottingham and Leeds is very popular, hard to believe that no such service existed 7-8 years ago!

Should, of course be 3 or 4 cars but unbelievably won’t fit in the platform at Leeds station!

I agree that it’s been a hugely beneficial /busy service (but the pedant in me feels he should point out that the capacity issue at Leeds is because Platform 17 is shared with the half hourly Castleford stoppers - the platform itself could accommodate a four coach Nottingham service if the buffer end wasn’t already occupied by forty metres worth of 150… )


Ideally we’d now have the Nottingham service running via Westgate with longer trains and a fifteen minute saving on journey time, as Arriva’s franchise promised, but the OLR have obviously abandoned all of those ambitions so we’re stuck with two coach trains and the slower journey time because the TPE services are more important so they get exclusive use of Platform 16 at Leeds

 

[D365]

Now, I am not saying that this is what is going to happen, but it is more of a suggestion.

Rather than EMR getting rid of the 5 car class 222 units, I would suggest that these once the class 810 have started operations are used on services such as the Norwich - Liverpool Lime Street and Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street.

The problem will come that as I think some have suggested that 5 car trains though on the routes mentioned, maybe too long for some platforms.

A suggestion to whom? The possibility of Class 222s operating Hope Valley and/or Fenland services has been debunked many, many times.