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The electric rail

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northernrail

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not the nicest post but i do wonder.
when people fall/jump infront of tube trains dosent the live rail finish the person off before the train???

And a more nicer question, does each tube train have a individual number that it sticks with from delivery until scrapping instead of individual coach numbers???
 
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jopsuk

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to answer the second question, most of the trains are made up of two or more units- think these sub-trains may carry unique train numbers, I've certainly seen the new S8 stock reffered to in such a way. Most of the time the units are "single ended", but some stock (especially the A Stock) has a cab at both ends- though on most of the A stock the "centre" cab is not painted red, and is only used on depot. The C-stock runs in six car formations consisting of three "single ended" units made of a driving-motor and a trailer with shunting controls.

As for grisly question? I guess it's a matter of timing.
 

colchesterken

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Isnt it all a question of bad or good luck as it is only 750 v dont you have a good connection
I once saw a trackwoker step on the 3 rail and was OK ,he may have been wearing special boots
I know with 25000v it can go through anything and even jump gaps
 

DaveNewcastle

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Injuries from electrocution on the railways can appear in many ways, depending on which parts of the person are affected and how much current flows (which can depend on several environmental and personal factors). The primary effect of high electrical currents is usually going to be severe burning. If critical internal organs are affected then the body may slowly succumb to that damage over many days, probably in very considerable pain.

The protection of railway personnel and others from exposure to the risks of uninsulated electrical conductors is probably one of the greatest lessons in personal and collective safety that any of us can learn from an interest in the railways.
 

90019

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Isnt it all a question of bad or good luck as it is only 750 v dont you have a good connection
I once saw a trackwoker step on the 3 rail and was OK ,he may have been wearing special boots
I know with 25000v it can go through anything and even jump gaps

750v DC 3rd rail is more dangerous than 25kV AC OHL; the current is much lower in the OHL, and because it's AC it's pushes you away, which the DC doesn't. Obviously, the OHL is much further away and harder to get to.

Both will kill you, but the OHL is much less likely to.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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And a more nicer question, does each tube train have a individual number that it sticks with from delivery until scrapping instead of individual coach numbers???


For my convenience I will record Underground trains as units rather than writing every single carriage down, and my unofficial system works in the same way as the official system on the Paris Metro.

For the Bakerloo, I will record the 32xx and 34xx numbers.
For the Central I will record the 92xxx numbers.*
For the Circle / H&C, the 5xxx numbers.
For the District, the 17xxx numbers.**
For the Jubilee, the 960xx / 961xx numbers.
For the Met, the 5xxx numbers.
For the Northern, the 51xxx numbers.
For the Piccadilly, the 5xx / 6xx numbers.**
For the Victoria, the 30xx numbers / 110xx numbers.


*The reason for this being that all units have a 92xxx car whereas only ½ the units have a 91xxx / 93xxx car.

**The reason for using the centre cars on these two lines is because of the risk of confusion when reaching the twin cab units at the end of the fleet lists.
 

John Webb

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In underground stations as opposed to those on the surface, there is a pit between the rails which is designed to catch someone below the level of the rails so that they might avoid contact between train, live rails and person if they fall or jump.

At both underground and surface stations the outer live rail is placed on the the side of the track furthest from the platform edge to minimise contact if someone does fall or jump in front of the train.

I also think that the centre live rail is only around 220 volts relative to earth which further minimises the possible electrocution although still high enough if all the conditions exist for a good current to earth through someone.
 

rmt-driver

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Iv stepped on a 3rd rail with standard leather shoes (by accident), you don't feel a thing (don't try though).

Iv also seen someone electrocuted from it by direct contact with the skin, it was quick and a lot of burning of the skin occurred, I wouldn't try this either btw.

So it depends, if the person jumps and say the clothing, coat or bag etc shields them from the power rails, then it would be the impact from the train that did the damage... if bare skin came into contact straight away they may well be dead before the impact. As has been said, depends on timing etc
 

Old Timer

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750v DC 3rd rail is more dangerous than 25kV AC OHL; the current is much lower in the OHL, and because it's AC it's pushes you away, which the DC doesn't. Obviously, the OHL is much further away and harder to get you.

Both will kill you, but the OHL is much less likely to.
Errr.....Who on earth told you that ? :roll:
 

Old Timer

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So 750V DC doesn't have a higher current than 25kV AC does? And OHL isn't further away to most people than 3rd rail is?
Now, now there is no need to be sarcastic.
Comparing current is irrelevant in this context, both will kill you stone dead without the breakers even tripping in the right circumstances.
I would have thought that rmt drivers post might have sent alarm bells ringing on that point.

Do you actually know what the current is in the OHL ? and do you know what the fault current rating is before the OHL breakers will trip ?
 

90019

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Now, now there is no need to be sarcastic.

Apologies, it wasn't intended to be sarcastic, though reading back now, I can see it appears so.

Comparing current is irrelevant in this context, both will kill you stone dead without the breakers even tripping in the right circumstances.
I would have thought that rmt drivers post might have sent alarm bells ringing on that point.

I realise now that putting 'much more dangerous' was a mistake, I know that both will kill you, but from where I am getting a direct shock from 3rd rail appears much more dangerous partially because of being on the ground and therefore more easily accessible. From what I've been taught about DC and AC, I would've said that if you were to survive a major shock from either, the chances would be better for OHL, though still slim.

Do you actually know what the current is in the OHL ? and do you know what the fault current rating is before the OHL breakers will trip ?

Not exactly no, but I know that it is lower than it will be in 3rd rail.
 

transportphoto

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Slightly off topic... Can I ask how it works for Level Crossing in 3rd Rail Land?

Are they 'neutral' sections where the train coast's and therefore there is no current in the 3rd rail?
 

ralphchadkirk

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Slightly off topic... Can I ask how it works for Level Crossing in 3rd Rail Land?

Are they 'neutral' sections where the train coast's and therefore there is no current in the 3rd rail?

The third rail stops before the crossing, and starts after. Therefore there is a section where there is no third rail rather than a neutral section as you suggest.
 

DaveNewcastle

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There is a widespread confusion between some of the basics of electricity (not just on here, but I've even found this confusion among professionals in trades which work with electricity!).

The current which would 'trip' the circuits in an electric railway (ie the point at which a current is deemed to be so much greater than the designed maximum current for routine service) is far far greater than the current required to kill.

ALL power supplies for railway traction have the potential to seriously injure and to kill humans, irrespective of voltage, AC or DC, or centre-tapped supplies (LU).

To address just one of the confusions on here, it is true that electricity can 'jump' or arc across gaps. The higher the voltage, the more potential there is for it to 'jump'. This might be an arc across air or through shoe leather, all substances conduct better when wet than dry.
Whether anyone reading this is likely to be close to un-insulated electrical conductors, just please do not try to discover anything by personal experiment. The well documented consequences are all far too horrible to discuss.
 

Old Timer

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Apologies, it wasn't intended to be sarcastic, though reading back now, I can see it appears so..
No worries

I realise now that putting 'much more dangerous' was a mistake, I know that both will kill you, but from where I am getting a direct shock from 3rd rail appears much more dangerous partially because of being on the ground and therefore more easily accessible..
What you are referring to here is the increased likelihood from exposure to, rather than the inherent risk from the live equipment. This is a pretty common fallacy amongst most people. The point is that a missing earth bond at an OHL Structure can result in a suffficient build up of electricity as to cause a serious electric shock. Similarly a broken yellow rail to rail bond although not normally carrying sufficient current to be dangerous to life can again give rise to a very serious shock or indeed if the right (or wrong) circumstances come together can lead to a fatal electric shock. Red rail to OHL RC conductor wires are treated as live and dangerous to life at all times as they carry high voltages from the running rail. All of these examples are present at ground level and indeed less obvious than the live Conductor rail.

From what I've been taught about DC and AC, I would've said that if you were to survive a major shock from either, the chances would be better for OHL, though still slim..
Whoever taught you that was at best very foolish to let you leave with that perception and at worst an incompetent trainer. If you know him/her please feel free to pass that comment on.

Again people, including Railway trainers who really should know better perpetuate myths that are quite wrong, and Network Rail is particularly bad in this respect because they do not recognise the need to give their safety trainers even a basic understanding of the OHL Equipment, and so the myths continue.

During contact with the OHL, the short circuit generated is sufficently powerful enough to vapourise the water droplets in the air, and the superheated dry air then becomes a superconductor. This is the "flash" one would see. The "bang" one would hear is the rapid explosive expansion of the water droplets, and explains why people are "thrown away" from the OHL Equipment. Quite simply in many cases it is this expansive air force that pushes them away as in any explosion. The myth is that the elctricity "throws" you away because it is alternating. This is quite wrong, and in any case the sine wave cycles are far too frequent to have any effect.

The flash causes sever burns to the skin and causes clothing to go on fire. During the time that a person is in contact with, or is within arcing distance of, the OHL Equipment, the current will be building steadily and rapidly. HV current acts differently on the body in that it will enter the body by the creation of an entry hole, and will then follow the bone structure until it finds a suitable earth at which point it will exit the body. Because the body has a resistance, the current is still building up during this process causing the blood to boil and sometimes vapourise. This of itself causes the internal organs to be cooked. Muscle forms a perfect route for the electricity to follow and thus will be destroyed.

Generally by this time the person is normally dead. In the event that they manage to survive until the breakers trip out, their flesh, nervous system and body are pretty much shot to pieces. They will also be subject to pneumonia as a result of the rapid heating and cooling of the body, as well as the flesh being unable to recover and dying off, with the consequent result of gangrene.

A DC electric shock is very different in that the flash will be much less unless a metallic or other conductive material is involved. A person can fall over the Conductor rail and survive for some time whilst the current continues to flow through their body. It is suggested that the breathing function shuts down so one slowly dies from asphyxiation, whilst the flesh and internal organs are burning and cooking. Some people have been known to burn through without the breakers ever tripping out.

Contact with the Conductor rail is not guarnteed to be always fatal as it depends upon each person's natural resistance (size, weight, build, fat, etc) as well as environmental factors such as what the person is standing on, the type of clothing shoes, etc. It was quite common in BR days for people to get an electric shock through their rain mac as it trailed across the Conductor rail and many SR men have experienced "the hard smack to the back of the neck" which was a certain sign that their coat had touched the third rail..

......Not exactly no, but I know that it is lower than it will be in 3rd rail.
Again you have been misinformed. Fault currents in the OHL Equipment can reach 6000 amps. Fault currents in the Conductor rail system are generally tripped at about 900 amps
 

colchesterken

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I am ever so confused.( more than i am in the normal run of things )
if you multiply the amps by 25k you get a fantastic power think of a class 92
pulling 2000tons .I always thought that contact with 25k was instant cremation

with 750 you would need good contact as somone said boots or clothes can protect
a person .I read someone copped it by having a pee on the 3rd rail when drunk

is there an engineer on board who can clear this up
 

ralphchadkirk

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I am ever so confused.( more than i am in the normal run of things )
if you multiply the amps by 25k you get a fantastic power think of a class 92
pulling 2000tons .I always thought that contact with 25k was instant cremation

with 750 you would need good contact as somone said boots or clothes can protect
a person .I read someone copped it by having a pee on the 3rd rail when drunk

is there an engineer on board who can clear this up

Read the post above yours, it explains that.
 

bangor-toad

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Hi,
I'll add a little to Old Timer's comprehensive post.

The breakdown potential of air is about 3000 Volts per mm. There is some difference between AC & DC but it's very small. This means that you don't need to touch a 25,000 V (AC) line - it can jump through air and still get you.

I'm not a railwayman but I'm sure I've read that there are all sorts of safety requirements put in place on working near OLE to prevent this jump occuring.

For 750 V (DC) you've got to touch the conductor.


As for being "pushed away" from an electrical source, this is based on a real effect but what actually happens is critical. When muscle receives an electrical shock it invariably tenses and causes a contraction.
If you were shocked on the back of your hand, this would cause your fist to clench and your arm at the elbow to bend inwards - in other words pulling away from the conductor.
If the shock is to the palm of your hand it can cause the fist to clench harder around the source of the electrical current - thereby making things much worse.

Overall moral - respect any type of railway electrification!

Jason
 

NSEFAN

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And it's been removed by YouTube. Quite rightly too; it's not exactly pleasant... :|
 

Metadyneman

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No I agree it is very unpleasant.. I do think they should play it to the morons who try and steal cables from railways though.. might make them think twice about it!

The video has been around longer that YouTube I think. I seem to remember someone sending it to me years ago in an e-mail! It's right that it shouldn't be on Youtube though.. not suitable fo general viewing!
 

NSEFAN

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In a way, shock tactics are a good thing, certainly in schools. I imagine it used to be effective in warning kids about the realities of tresspassing on a railway. Mind you, that vid from India would probably be banned very quickly! Seeing a person die instantly and then their smouldering remains fall to the platform would give a fair few nightmares.
 
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