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'The Museum Volunteering Crisis: A Report' Discussion

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tram21

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Hi everyone,

An issue always on the minds of people volunteering at a heritage museum, particularly in the operations side, for example as a tram conductor at the Crich Tramway Museum, is how can we recruit new volunteers, and retain the current ones. Does the current model of volunteering covering the operations work, or is change needed.

I recently came across this very interesting video by a colleague of mine at Crich. I'd be interested to hear different responses to the video, so give it a watch and let me know what you think!

The final project piece from my Masters Degree in Broadcast Journalism chronicling the challenges faced by volunteer organisations. In the film we visit Crich Tramway Museum, the Severn Valley Railway and the Santoft Trolley Bus Museum.
 
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En

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Volunteering is always an interesting 'thing', especially when the volunteering involves 'safety critical' tasks and/or requires externally validated qualifications ( even if it's even just having a DVLA driving licence) - the 80/20 rule comes into play,

even without considering Cost of living issues ( and stuff like Student Finance ) add into the pension thing touched upon ...
 

31160

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Yes I watched this film on YouTube earlier and to align with what it says I used to volunteer on the WSR before COVID but the enforced break along with other health issues prevented me going back after it was all over, I think people these days are retiring later than they were 20 years ago due to better pensions then than now also some people have to keep working in retirement to make ends meet
Very good film btw
 

Titfield

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The financial aspect that is often quoted is most interesting.

According to the cruise industry passenger carryings ex UK are 14.5% up against 2019 widely viewed as the benchmark year to judge a travel sectors recovery post pandemic.

Andy Harmer shared the latest figures at an event in central London today (17 April).


He noted how passenger numbers were 14.5% up against 2019 which has widely been viewed as the benchmark year to judge a travel sector’s pandemic recovery.
European Travel is now at (or very close to) pre-covid travel levels.


European travel and tourism is very close to returning to pre-pandemic levels – and despite air travel and accommodation costing more than before, travelers are generally willing to spend more. That is according to research from OC&C Strategy Consultants.
 
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lineisclear

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While many heritage organisations depend almost entirely on volunteers some manage with relatively high levels of paid staff. The traditional view is that those with a substantial wage bill must be more vulnerable than those who depend almost entirely on volunteer free labour. What the video indicates is that social and economic trends may mean that in future the opposite could be true. Those heritage organisations that have developed a business model capable of absorbing the cost of substantial numbers of paid staff may find their future is more secure than those still wholly or substantially reliant on a supply of increasingly scarce volunteers.
 

tram21

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While many heritage organisations depend almost entirely on volunteers some manage with relatively high levels of paid staff. The traditional view is that those with a substantial wage bill must be more vulnerable than those who depend almost entirely on volunteer free labour. What the video indicates is that social and economic trends may mean that in future the opposite could be true. Those heritage organisations that have developed a business model capable of absorbing the cost of substantial numbers of paid staff may find their future is more secure than those still wholly or substantially reliant on a supply of increasingly scarce volunteers.
The majority of organisations have paid staff for every section of the organisation, except the operations of the trains/trams. I'm personally of the opinion that volunteers covering this is the best way, rather than have paid staff, however there are pros and cons to each way.
 

Roger1973

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I should make it clear I've no present or past direct involvement with Crich, so none of what I say about them.

Agree with a lot of what's said, and it's not unique to transport preservation / museums. Volunteering in general has had a large contingent over the last 20+ years of people who were able to take (in some cases early) retirement on what was then considered a decent pension (which we're now encouraged to think of as 'gold plated / generous' pensions), whose home was fully paid for, and whose adult children were able to afford to buy a home without financial assistance.

There's a lot of angles to it.

How volunteering organisations treat new volunteers is very variable. Some volunteers go in with unrealistic expectations (we had a thread on here a year or two back where someone was offended because he wasn't out driving trains within months of joining a steam railway.) But many volunteer organisations have a very established core, and some make newcomers / young volunteers very unwelcome (and in some cases, the age at which someone is regarded as 'young' or the length of 'service' where someone is regarded as 'new' just keeps increasing.) There is a legitimate need for experience and training, but some organisations take the hierarchy and seniority thing a bit too far. On the other hand, I once ended up on the committee of a voluntary organisation within a month of joining.

Involving younger people is complicated - I was surprised to see that Crich (or their insurers and whatever the railway inspectorate's called now) allow 16 year olds as conductors. Most safety critical roles will have an age limit, and supervision of volunteers under 16 potentially brings organisations in to child protection territory. I'm aware some preserved railways have schemes for younger volunteers, but some will be reluctant to get in to that. Some people will regard this as un-necessary 'red tape' (although they may be the people who would be first with the pitchforks if anything happened to a member of their family) but it's an unfortunate fact that a few people seek out opportunities to work with children for all the wrong reasons.

Some organisations have too entrenched a 'department' structure with too much time and effort being put in to inter-departmental rivalry / disputes. Or where people who are willing and able to do some tasks being looked down on by others (can be the people who do the 'white collar' tasks looking down at those who are prepared to do the mucky jobs, but one organisation I've known had a treasurer who was very good at identifying and taking advantage of all the legitimate tax breaks for a charity, seeking out grants, and so on, but ended up being pushed out because they weren't often seen with their overalls on.)

The financial aspect is also not easy - if volunteering at (for example, a preserved railway) requires an individual to buy their own uniform and equipment, that's going to put some people off (although could be difficult if a volunteer was to get kitted out, then leave and not return their kit - an employer can offset that against the last week's wages.) Some volunteer organisations seem to expect volunteers to pay full public prices for tea and coffee and don't seem to want volunteers who can't afford it. On the other hand, I have volunteered for organisations where you can claim things like travel expenses. I'm not sure what the rules are round charities subsidising / paying for things like that.
 

Titfield

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Sadly this thread serves to encourage potential volunteers NOT to volunteer.

As someone who has volunteered on a heritage railway if anything it is those who do the mucky jobs who are higher in the pecking order than those who dont.

The biggest "turn off" to me though, were those senior volunteers who seemed to wish to recreate the working practices of less enlightened times where seniority was everything and belittling the efforts of those less senior on a regular basis was a norm.

The constant repetition of "there are fewer early retirees" "it costs too much to volunteer" "people havent the time these days" are imho far lesser factors in the "crisis" than the way in which people are treated; not necessarily by the management but by their co-workers. If volunteering was demonstrably a rewarding and enjoyable thing to do then like any hobby people would be attracted to it and find the time and means to do it. You only have to look around to see that plenty of people can find the time and money to watch skysports (£264pa), netflix (£60pa-£216pa) or surf on their latest model iphone - which out of interest the Iphone 16 pro max is now C£1200 and will be superceded within a year.

Not providing working volunteers with free tea or coffee must be about the most stupid decision a heritage railway could make.
 

Lost property

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I should make it clear I've no present or past direct involvement with Crich, so none of what I say about them.

Agree with a lot of what's said, and it's not unique to transport preservation / museums. Volunteering in general has had a large contingent over the last 20+ years of people who were able to take (in some cases early) retirement on what was then considered a decent pension (which we're now encouraged to think of as 'gold plated / generous' pensions), whose home was fully paid for, and whose adult children were able to afford to buy a home without financial assistance.

There's a lot of angles to it.

How volunteering organisations treat new volunteers is very variable. Some volunteers go in with unrealistic expectations (we had a thread on here a year or two back where someone was offended because he wasn't out driving trains within months of joining a steam railway.) But many volunteer organisations have a very established core, and some make newcomers / young volunteers very unwelcome (and in some cases, the age at which someone is regarded as 'young' or the length of 'service' where someone is regarded as 'new' just keeps increasing.) There is a legitimate need for experience and training, but some organisations take the hierarchy and seniority thing a bit too far. On the other hand, I once ended up on the committee of a voluntary organisation within a month of joining.

Involving younger people is complicated - I was surprised to see that Crich (or their insurers and whatever the railway inspectorate's called now) allow 16 year olds as conductors. Most safety critical roles will have an age limit, and supervision of volunteers under 16 potentially brings organisations in to child protection territory. I'm aware some preserved railways have schemes for younger volunteers, but some will be reluctant to get in to that. Some people will regard this as un-necessary 'red tape' (although they may be the people who would be first with the pitchforks if anything happened to a member of their family) but it's an unfortunate fact that a few people seek out opportunities to work with children for all the wrong reasons.

Some organisations have too entrenched a 'department' structure with too much time and effort being put in to inter-departmental rivalry / disputes. Or where people who are willing and able to do some tasks being looked down on by others (can be the people who do the 'white collar' tasks looking down at those who are prepared to do the mucky jobs, but one organisation I've known had a treasurer who was very good at identifying and taking advantage of all the legitimate tax breaks for a charity, seeking out grants, and so on, but ended up being pushed out because they weren't often seen with their overalls on.)

The financial aspect is also not easy - if volunteering at (for example, a preserved railway) requires an individual to buy their own uniform and equipment, that's going to put some people off (although could be difficult if a volunteer was to get kitted out, then leave and not return their kit - an employer can offset that against the last week's wages.) Some volunteer organisations seem to expect volunteers to pay full public prices for tea and coffee and don't seem to want volunteers who can't afford it. On the other hand, I have volunteered for organisations where you can claim things like travel expenses. I'm not sure what the rules are round charities subsidising / paying for things like that.
I would echo the views expressed above and also the first line.

I've watched the video and would like to offer my own views.

A problem which seems prominent in the heritage sector....the lack of diversity and women participating... fully.

Another factor was the emphasis on outside influences e.g. Covid / cost of living / demographics as being reasons why volunteers are becoming difficult to recruit / retain. True, up to a point.

At no point however, probably because of a reluctance to admit to such, has another more relevant factor been mentioned...the one of internal culture.

In the 21st century, diversity is essential. It's futile to become / remain, reliant on a certain, male, demographic who want to play at trains. Equally, the adherence to the "this is the way B.R did things and so will we "...mantra. Those days / practices are, or should be, consigned to history along with their advocates.

I'm currently a volunteer with two organisations. Both are in stark contrast (not difficult) to my former railway.


DBS checks are mandatory....no problem there, they should be for all voluntary organisations.

I work with a range of occupations / ages / and both male / female volunteers. Three of the paid managers are female.

The roles are safety critical. Again, if you are familiar with, and have the mindset as a result, such environments, there's no problem.

As a normal, I'm expected to interact with normal's, having sense of humour helps!

I'm also expected to wear corporate attire. Fine, no different to work attire. Why the heritage rail sector is obsessed with archaic uniforms only they know. In many cases, it makes the wearer look ridiculous, even more so when a "big hat" is worn. I've seen plenty of station staff on heritage railways, stood around, looking ridiculous in hats that don't fit.

I'm also treated with courtesy.

Recruiting volunteers isn't that difficult. Retaining them is.

If the heritage sector is to remain active, it's no use trying to abrogate blame on external factors.

Take a deep introspective look at your cultures and, then, the difficult if not impossible for some, have the moral courage to change.

You may be surprised if you suddenly start to attract, and retain, a diverse range of volunteers as a result.
 
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BayPaul

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The majority of organisations have paid staff for every section of the organisation, except the operations of the trains/trams. I'm personally of the opinion that volunteers covering this is the best way, rather than have paid staff, however there are pros and cons to each way.
I know one railway line that says it is much cheaper to have entirely paid staff, because of the simplicity. They are able to operate a basic 1 train service with just 8 staff at work. A volunteer based line would (according to the guy I was chatting to) need at least this number of paid staff just to coordinate / train / cover for volunteer absence etc.
 

driverd

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As I've said many times before and will likely voice again, the main issue is culture at (some of) these places. I did some voluntary work at a local heritage railway (not Crich tramway, just to clarify) and found it a very unwelcoming and actively negative experience. Generally expressing an interest in a certain area was met with indifference, and if you couldn't make a certain date due to commitments such as, you know, work, you were very quickly dropped from the mailing list.

In theory, as someone in their mid 20s (at the time), with real world rail experience and qualifications, I should have expected to have been a good fit for such roles. The reality was that, unless I was prepared to spend long days doing the most degrading/dirty/arduous jobs for no foreseeable benefit, then spend the evening following drinking with the higher ups (invariably old men, some of whom were well known for their taste in younger people...), you'd be forgotten about and ousted.

It's highly unfortunate, but this appears to be a reasonably common experience. Not only do young people have to deal with doing the worst jobs, with little in the way of reward forthcoming, you also have to learn how to say "no" to older men, deal with a discriminatory culture (as highlighted above) and be prepared to move your commitments around those of the railway.

Often these places take recreating the past significantly further than necessary.
 
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tram21

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At Crich we have a pretty diverse volunteer workforce. Of course there are quute a few retired men, because you can't get away from that, but there are also quite a few young people, 2 16 year olds joined as conductors this year and work well alongside all other members of the team, which includes a few women, including trans women, and people from all ages, I wouldn't say one age is represented the most. There are lots of working-age people, a few young people and quite a few retired people! I know this isn't always the case elsewhere, but I think our traffic team is quite diverse!


What I think is always interesting is that we have no and cannot have any 'traditional spotters', due to the very strict safety critical nature of the role, it's an unfortunate fact of life that these people are unfortunately unable to partake in safety critical roles such as this. The majority of our volunteers clearly have some interest in public transport or trams, with some working for railways/tramways, but there's none that are absolutely obsessed like some people are. I'm in no way being discriminatory or derogatory, but it's just interesting the fine line organisations have to find between not stopping lots of people volunteering, but ensuring those who do can follow the safety rules.
 
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Lemmy282

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Agree with all above, but would point out that not all volunteers at Crich have an interest in trams or public transport. I was talking to a new trainee conductor the other day who came as a visitor and liked the idea of "doing something different". She is now working towards becoming a conductor, which is not about just issuing tickets!
You can't force people to be volunteers, but you can put them off, we seem to have the right balance and after a few lean years are now enjoying a resurgence in people coming forward to run the tram service. There is full training given along with all checks for todays legal requirements. Traffic volunteers also get free tea and coffee and a choice of several simple free lunches when on duty.
Things have changed a lot over the 30 years I have been a volunteer, more and more legislation has been introduced, the authorities are taking more interest in the safety aspects of heritage operations, and life has become more complex.
There is no place for the attitudes of old, we must move with the times, for the sake of keeping the heritage movement progressing, if we let it go, it will be almost impossible to get it back. We must encourage new volunteers, whoever they are, make them feel welcome and valued, or in a few years it will all collapse
 

eyebrook1961

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As I've said many times before and will likely voice again, the main issue is culture at (some of) these places. I did some voluntary work at a local heritage railway (not Crich tramway, just to clarify) and found it a very unwelcoming and actively negative experience. Generally expressing an interest in a certain area was met with indifference, and if you couldn't make a certain date due to commitments such as, you know, work, you were very quickly dropped from the mailing list.

In theory, as someone in their mid 20s (at the time), with real world rail experience and qualifications, I should have expected to have been a good fit for such roles. The reality was that, unless I was prepared to spend long days doing the most degrading/dirty/arduous jobs for no foreseeable benefit, then spend the evening following drinking with the higher ups (invariably old men, some of whom were well known for their taste in younger people...), you'd be forgotten about and ousted.

It's highly unfortunate, but this appears to be a reasonably common experience. Not only do young people have to deal with doing the worst jobs, with little in the way of reward forthcoming, you also have to learn how to say "no" to older men, deal with a discriminatory culture (as highlighted above) and be prepared to move your commitments around those of the railway.

Often these places take recreating the past significantly further than necessary.
The heritage railway that I volunteered at in the 1970s for about ten years had its' share, not so much of "invariably old men, some of whom were well known for their taste in younger people..." but single males who in this era could easily be labelled "predatory" with an interest in younger males (early teens onwards). I was told to not be surprised that there were a number of such males involved with the organisation, because there were so many younger single males around . . . .
 

Vespa

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The heritage railway that I volunteered at in the 1970s for about ten years had its' share, not so much of "invariably old men, some of whom were well known for their taste in younger people..." but single males who in this era could easily be labelled "predatory" with an interest in younger males (early teens onwards). I was told to not be surprised that there were a number of such males involved with the organisation, because there were so many younger single males around . . . .
Did your heritage organisation now do DBS checks ?

Certain organisation can attract undesirable individuals without due diligence they can slip in under the radar.

I volunteer with a youth organisation and because of it's obvious attractions to unsavoury individuals all staffs have to do mandatory DBS checks and repeat them at regular intervals.
 
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185

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I'm less surprised people aren't volunteering for many places. One such place, desperate for volunteers has listed in its books, an £800,000 annual wage bill (y/e 2020) for it's "directors and managers". It also puts 50% of it's expenditure down as "generating funds". The admission fee isn't cheap, so from the perspective of someone giving their time for free, why would they?
 
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Lemmy282

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I think that is a valid point, most heritage transport museums started with a group of volunteers, and ran like that for many years. Over the years these organisations grew to the point where the running needed to be put on a more 'professional' footing, so they would employ a couple of paid staff. Legislation and its associated paperwork has grown over the years, and if you don't have volunteers who have the time or skills to deal with this you need more paid staff. At this point you are now in a 'business', and need to generate more revenue to cover these costs, and the spiral continues.
Okay, a volunteer is effectively 'working' for this business for nothing, but the point is volunteers do this because they WANT to, nobody is forcing anyone to be a volunteer.
 

Vespa

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Volunteer retention is the biggest problem, getting them through the door is the easy part.

Cliques, entrenched practice and petty politics is the problem that new volunteers face, in common with most voluntary organisations not just heritage railway the attrition rate is 50% will leave in the first year, a further 25%of the initial intake leave in the 2nd and 3rd year leaving maybe 25% to 15% to carry on.
 

En

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Volunteer retention is the biggest problem, getting them through the door is the easy part.

Cliques, entrenched practice and petty politics is the problem that new volunteers face, in common with most voluntary organisations not just heritage railway the attrition rate is 50% will leave in the first year, a further 25%of the initial intake leave in the 2nd and 3rd year leaving maybe 25% to 15% to carry on.
indeed ... and then of those remaining the 80/20 rule often applies
not a transport museum related anecdote but volunteering none the less... I used to volunteer with a well known CQC Registered and Regulated First Aid and Ambulance charity ...

in the momnthly reporting from the various departments there was a breakdown of vehicle mileage and who drove what ... there were a couple of people employed as fleet assistants, obviously they often topped the list of miles of driven as they did the moves around the region to get the right vehicle in the right place at the right time, all the moves for servicing and repairs and often did pre-positioning for the large trailer Mobile treatment units / control centre
the next highest were a number of the 'Clinical Department' senior(ish) volunteers - these were operational miles - admittedly in this period we were operating a multi person crew FRV on a 'night time environment' project which needed an (NHS trained ) Ambulance Technician / Nurse /Paramedic or Doctor to operate so as the techs and paras were all accredited drivers as were a number of Nurses and a couple of the Drs ... but there was also a significant number of miles driven by the Techs / Paras / Nurses for 'ordinary' Ambulance operations which didn't have a specific booking for a tech or health Professional ...
 
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nferguso

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I have been following this thread with interest. I made a comment on the video pointing out an omission concerning the demographics of volunteers, specifically a perennial gap in the 35-55 age group. This is the stage where many people are in a family and career-building stage and, as such organisations lose the input of people at their potentially most productive and innovative.

From a Heritage Railway perspective, over the past twenty years I have seen a general change in practice regarding volunteers and their management. This change has echoed a change in the approach of the Bog Railway and indeed other organisations: something I call "New Railway" versus "Old Railway". A lot of "Old Railway" practices reflected industry of old: plenty of knowledge but many informal practices and something of an 'us and them' mentality where you needed to know and if you didn't, then you could be treated as something of an outsider. The other "Old railway" practice concerned mishaps where ethe approach was often "Give those seen to be responsible a kicking and then sweep events under the carpet". This has changed and the influence of the ORR has played a great part: negligence aside, organisations have to play a greater part in managing risk and learning from mistakes and mishaps.

Organisations have to take a more formal approach to volunteer management: mention has been made of DBS checking and although this can be overstated (the number of people required to be DBS checked in an organisation is less than one might imagine), the broader subject of volunteer welfare must be addressed formally by an organisation. In legal terms, a volunteer is an employee and as such, any organisation has a duty of care towards them.

Ultimately, nobody can legislate against personalities and personality clashes, while one person's tight-knit group is another's clique. Nonetheless, it is important for organisations to take volunteer management seriously.
 

lineisclear

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So far as health and safety is concerened heritage railway organisations are subject to similar duties in respect of their volunteers but under a different section of the Act that applies where any work is undertaken. The converse is not true. The legislation does not impose any duties on volunteers but they do have a general common law duty to take care. That means while an employer and an employee could be prosecuted for health and safety breaches a volunteer cannot.
Organistions also have safeguarding duties to volunteers who are vulnerable adults (Strict, but sensibly ignored, compliance with old legislation means there shouldn't be any child volunteers on a railway but where there are the same safeguarding duty applies to them).
Volunteers are not legally employees so are not protected by employment and equality legislation. The absence of any enforceable volunteer rights is all the more reason to ensure they are managed fairly.
 

richw

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I can’t speak for Crich as no experience of that organisation.

However from my experiences of trying to volunteer at various organisations where I’d deem myself suitably experienced I’ve found them to very clicky. Almost an old man’s closed club. Its put me off volunteering where I don’t know people.

The two organisations I’ve successfully volunteered my skills with I've known the majority of members from my day job.
 

Titfield

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I can’t speak for Crich as no experience of that organisation.

However from my experiences of trying to volunteer at various organisations where I’d deem myself suitably experienced I’ve found them to very clicky. Almost an old man’s closed club. Its put me off volunteering where I don’t know people.

The two organisations I’ve successfully volunteered my skills with I've known the majority of members from my day job.

and the last two paragraphs encapsulate the hidden challenge of volunteer recruitment - people are only accepted into and feel welcome where they are already "part of the club".
 

tram21

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and the last two paragraphs encapsulate the hidden challenge of volunteer recruitment - people are only accepted into and feel welcome where they are already "part of the club".
Personally I disagree with this at Crich (I can't comment on anywhere else). I'm a new volunteer but felt very welcomed and people were more than happy to welcome new people not only into the job but also into the community.
 

Titfield

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Personally I disagree with this at Crich (I can't comment on anywhere else). I'm a new volunteer but felt very welcomed and people were more than happy to welcome new people not only into the job but also into the community.

The number of negative comments about volunteering on various forums would suggest very sadly that being welcomed is by no means a universal experience.
 

43096

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The number of negative comments about volunteering on various forums would suggest very sadly that being welcomed is by no means a universal experience.
There’s two sides to that coin, though. For every one with a lack of welcome, there’s the volunteer who comes in with an attitude problem.
 

railfan99

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Is one small and very much only partial 'solution' to say to volunteers 'if you stick around and are regularly rostered (say at least two days a month) for six months', the railway/tramway/trolleybus organisation will give you 50 per cent of the cost of your uniform back, on condition that when you leave, the garments are all returned to us?'
 

paul1609

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The number of negative comments about volunteering on various forums would suggest very sadly that being welcomed is by no means a universal experience.
From my experience it's a near universal experience. There's always going to be the odd exception and even the best people can have off days.
 

Titfield

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From my experience it's a near universal experience. There's always going to be the odd exception and even the best people can have off days.

I am pleased to hear that in your experience being welcomed is a near universal experience and of course there will always be the odd exception and off days.

Is it just that social media in all its forms highlights the bad experiences of a very small minority?

Reading this and other threads on this topic, much is made of financial issues, later retirement etc etc.

Personally I believe that a very major factor is the seemingly increasing retreat into the home by many who seek their entertainment remotely through devices rather than out in the physical world.
 

En

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So far as health and safety is concerened heritage railway organisations are subject to similar duties in respect of their volunteers but under a different section of the Act that applies where any work is undertaken. The converse is not true. The legislation does not impose any duties on volunteers but they do have a general common law duty to take care. That means while an employer and an employee could be prosecuted for health and safety breaches a volunteer cannot.
Organistions also have safeguarding duties to volunteers who are vulnerable adults (Strict, but sensibly ignored, compliance with old legislation means there shouldn't be any child volunteers on a railway but where there are the same safeguarding duty applies to them).
Volunteers are not legally employees so are not protected by employment and equality legislation. The absence of any enforceable volunteer rights is all the more reason to ensure they are managed fairly.

pretty much , However, volunteers are protected by Equality Legislation ... and there;s a very good chance that the railway sector in particular will get a rude awakening on this subject before too long



Is one small and very much only partial 'solution' to say to volunteers 'if you stick around and are regularly rostered (say at least two days a month) for six months', the railway/tramway/trolleybus organisation will give you 50 per cent of the cost of your uniform back, on condition that when you leave, the garments are all returned to us?'
good volunteering practice ( and the law if anything is PPE) says that 100 % of the cost of uniform and workwear is met by the organisation on the understanding , that many workplace uniforms, you are required to at least present all issued ite,s at the end of your engagement with the organisation for the organisation to account for, even if they subsequently write off and allow you 'intercept' certain items as they fall off the counter into the bin (e.g. boots , under shirts and the like)
 
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