Thoughts on the impending alternative fuel future

[scosutsut]

Started this as a new thread as I don't want to derail the UK bus builder thread which prompted the thinking.

Obviously the UK government has revised the decarbonisation target for road vehicles a few times.
LEZ and ULEZ and such zones are springing up around the country. Operators are having to Euro 6 upgrade vehicles or in the case of the bigger groups, rearrange the deck chairs on the titanic and shuffle stock around to meet requirements in certain areas to the cost of areas not bringing in restrictions.

Where we saw the odd CNG bus micro fleet and then smatterings of Diesel-Battery Hybrids we are now increasingly seeing full battery and full hydrogen solutions being pushed through more and more.

Is anyone else not convinced yet? I can see the logic to a certain degree of enforcing a decarbonisation of private motor vehicles, but for me, if the solutions (which admittedly are improving all the time) aren't up to scratch what is the end result going to be for PCV and HGVs?

Reduced winter timetables because battery buses chew through their charge quicker? For example?

I also fail to see how an industry on its knees that struggles to invest in vehicle replacement collectively enough is going to cope when faced with increasing purchase and lease costs?

Ultimately I see hydrogen as the proper solution to the problem but I understand the main issue with it is the cost and carbon footprint of creating said hydrogen. I see this as being the problem that should be getting the attention as I'm holding off on that being the solution for personal cars too!

TL;DR: I'm absolutely all for decarbonisation. But are we asking the industry to sprint before it can even stand up?

 

[freetoview33]

There is new Hydrogen technology around, which by in large would deal with the main issues. It's just getting the technology to be available for use with manufacturers.
But the government seem hell bent on electric at least in the medium term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While the trial has now ended, my local bus route (Arriva MK route 7) operated for 5 years using induction-charged electric buses. Other than that one vehicle too few was ordered (so there was also a diesel bus in the circuit) it worked fine. So the technology worked, and was viable, over 5 years ago as far as operating an urban cross city bus route of about 2 hours end to end running time went.

 

[GusB]

I honestly think we've reached a tipping point. Battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell technology is here and in service, and will improve as those technologies mature. The only real stumbling block is making sure there's enough infrastructure in place to support whatever solutions are chosen. That's going to need political will and a lot of government investment; that's the real hard part.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I honestly think we've reached a tipping point. Battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell technology is here and in service, and will improve as those technologies mature. The only real stumbling block is making sure there's enough infrastructure in place to support whatever solutions are chosen. That's going to need political will and a lot of government investment; that's the real hard part.

And the other stumbling block is capital cost - electric currently 1.5 - 2 x diesel per bus, and hydrogen 2 - 2.5 x diesel per bus. And that’s ignoringas you say the infrastructure and its cost, any range issues, land take in cramped depots, and whether (albeit initial per mile costs may be less) there’s a big battery/fuel cell replacement cost after 5/8/10 years. Look at the early hybrids now in many cases being converted to diesel. There’s no doubt all these things should improve over time - but the cost is still going to be way more than diesel. In the absence of external funding, or penalties on the use of cars, that will have to mean dramatic frequency cuts, and outside big towns and cities, loss of services.

 

[markymark2000]

I am certainly interested to know what throws the cost so high with hydrogen as I think that I think looks like the best way to go. I know in Ellesmere Port, there is a new Plastic to Hydrogen plant which could be used to power vehicles so could the additional supply bring the cost down or is it all in the manufacturing costs? What have First found out in Aberdeen with their hydrogen buses which may help us expand it into newer buses?

Electric works but I think that we need more opportunity charging rather than relying on charging infrastructure at the depot (1 charge each day surely means the batteries need to be bigger compared to opportunity charging where you can just do enough electric to cover a few hours). I think the Pantograph system works well for bus stations but no so well for out of town where it would look like a bit of an eyesore and I can imagine it being vandalised by local yobs in some areas. The Arriva trial however in Milton Keynes was very good and I would certainly welcome some insight into the down sides on that trial. It's in the ground so non intrusive. I could see possibly some issues though with speed bumps but that would need looking at on a case by case basis.
I think the main issue with electric is the batteries need replacing and we don't seem there yet for having the cost of batteries low enough and also getting them recycled at the end of their life to keep buses moving. I also think that for depot charging, there needs to be some development so that more buses can be charged from a single charge point. The current limit seems to be 1 or 2 depending on the charger model and while that is ok as you don't want long electric wires up and down the depot, it means more charging points are needed and when space is at a premium, we kind of need to be looking towards 4 charging points and maybe having some trailing wires so then less actual charging points are needed.

CNG is an interesting argument as apparently it emits more tailpipe pollutants than Euro VI engines and the costs of change are quite high for little benefit. That said, it seems cheaper overall as I think the buses are cheaper than electric so once you have the depot stuff sorted, the cost is the buses. I think this is proven slightly with Nottingham City, Reading Buses and Arriva Runcorn getting more CNG buses once they had the stuff in place.


While some of the technology is there so right now an electric bus can go out and work, I think we are going to be stuck in a few years time if new developments don't come out to sort out the battery issues and start making more clean energy. It think we are simply kicking a can down the road. Hydrogen buses work, but it's polluting to make and we don't have enough supply yet. CNG works and companies seem happy with it but it emits more pollutants than Euro VI and has a high depot infrastructure cost.


I think we all just cut the losses and go back to horse and kart. No electric needed, few pollutants. Gives horses some jobs to do other than sitting in a field. Poop scooper jobs can be given out as part of community service so no extra costs there. I don't know about anyone else but it sounds perfect to me.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The two induction plate trials that I can recall (MK and Bristol) have had differing levels of success. Whilst the MK one has done reasonably well, the Bristol has been less successful so that the 2 e400s have been VOR for the last year. I think pantograph charging is perhaps the way forward and I think that with the infrastructure at a few key locations, it could be feasible. Take the point on having visible infrastructure that may be vulnerable to ne'er do wells but if I look at Birmingham, you could have facilities at depots (Yardley Wood), Bus Stations, Hospitals or other reasonably secure locations like Solihull Station.

Of course, the issue with electrics has been the battery technology. They are expensive to build with all that lovely metal (and that has an environmental impact in itself) and whilst battery technology has come a long way from a Leyland National pulling a trailer, they've not quite cracked it. As others have said, the batteries tend to fade after 5-7 years and we've seen vehicles re-engined with euro VI instead with East Yorkshire and now First.

Reading, Nottingham and Bristol has gone for CNG in a big way; in the latter CT Plus had the first fuelling centre at their depot and working on behalf of First, with First then getting a fuel centre and 70+ vehicles at their Lawrence Hill depot. These buses aren't emission free, with CO2 being kicked out, but they are considerably lower than comparable engines and especially in terms of unburnt hydrocarbons which are a problem for respiratory ailments. However, the CO2 is also better than the methane that would otherwise be released into the atmosphere. It's probably the simplest and most straightforward of the alternative fuels, with the price differential in capital purchase and the works to build fuelling stations being the greatest obstacles.

I confess I don't know much about Hydrogen fuel cells and I'm not gonna frantically Google!

The issue that irks me is all the focus is on the dirty old buses but not the private car....can't upset the electorate.

 

[freetoview33]

The two induction plate trials that I can recall (MK and Bristol) have had differing levels of success. Whilst the MK one has done reasonably well, the Bristol has been less successful so that the 2 e400s have been VOR for the last year. I think pantograph charging is perhaps the way forward and I think that with the infrastructure at a few key locations, it could be feasible. Take the point on having visible infrastructure that may be vulnerable to ne'er do wells but if I look at Birmingham, you could have facilities at depots (Yardley Wood), Bus Stations, Hospitals or other reasonably secure locations like Solihull Station.

Of course, the issue with electrics has been the battery technology. They are expensive to build with all that lovely metal (and that has an environmental impact in itself) and whilst battery technology has come a long way from a Leyland National pulling a trailer, they've not quite cracked it. As others have said, the batteries tend to fade after 5-7 years and we've seen vehicles re-engined with euro VI instead with East Yorkshire and now First.

Reading, Nottingham and Bristol has gone for CNG in a big way; in the latter CT Plus had the first fuelling centre at their depot and working on behalf of First, with First then getting a fuel centre and 70+ vehicles at their Lawrence Hill depot. These buses aren't emission free, with CO2 being kicked out, but they are considerably lower than comparable engines and especially in terms of unburnt hydrocarbons which are a problem for respiratory ailments. However, the CO2 is also better than the methane that would otherwise be released into the atmosphere. It's probably the simplest and most straightforward of the alternative fuels, with the price differential in capital purchase and the works to build fuelling stations being the greatest obstacles.

I confess I don't know much about Hydrogen fuel cells and I'm not gonna frantically Google!

The issue that irks me is all the focus is on the dirty old buses but not the private car....can't upset the electorate.

I do agree that burning the methane is a better option than releasing it.

 

[Cesarcollie]

The two induction plate trials that I can recall (MK and Bristol) have had differing levels of success. Whilst the MK one has done reasonably well, the Bristol has been less successful so that the 2 e400s have been VOR for the last year. I think pantograph charging is perhaps the way forward and I think that with the infrastructure at a few key locations, it could be feasible. Take the point on having visible infrastructure that may be vulnerable to ne'er do wells but if I look at Birmingham, you could have facilities at depots (Yardley Wood), Bus Stations, Hospitals or other reasonably secure locations like Solihull Station.

Of course, the issue with electrics has been the battery technology. They are expensive to build with all that lovely metal (and that has an environmental impact in itself) and whilst battery technology has come a long way from a Leyland National pulling a trailer, they've not quite cracked it. As others have said, the batteries tend to fade after 5-7 years and we've seen vehicles re-engined with euro VI instead with East Yorkshire and now First.

Reading, Nottingham and Bristol has gone for CNG in a big way; in the latter CT Plus had the first fuelling centre at their depot and working on behalf of First, with First then getting a fuel centre and 70+ vehicles at their Lawrence Hill depot. These buses aren't emission free, with CO2 being kicked out, but they are considerably lower than comparable engines and especially in terms of unburnt hydrocarbons which are a problem for respiratory ailments. However, the CO2 is also better than the methane that would otherwise be released into the atmosphere. It's probably the simplest and most straightforward of the alternative fuels, with the price differential in capital purchase and the works to build fuelling stations being the greatest obstacles.

I confess I don't know much about Hydrogen fuel cells and I'm not gonna frantically Google!

The issue that irks me is all the focus is on the dirty old buses but not the private car....can't upset the electorate.

Quite. Don’t want to risk losing any votes. And sadly that applies to all the main political parties.....

 

[markymark2000]

The two induction plate trials that I can recall (MK and Bristol) have had differing levels of success. Whilst the MK one has done reasonably well, the Bristol has been less successful so that the 2 e400s have been VOR for the last year. I think pantograph charging is perhaps the way forward and I think that with the infrastructure at a few key locations, it could be feasible. Take the point on having visible infrastructure that may be vulnerable to ne'er do wells but if I look at Birmingham, you could have facilities at depots (Yardley Wood), Bus Stations, Hospitals or other reasonably secure locations like Solihull Station.

Of course, the issue with electrics has been the battery technology. They are expensive to build with all that lovely metal (and that has an environmental impact in itself) and whilst battery technology has come a long way from a Leyland National pulling a trailer, they've not quite cracked it. As others have said, the batteries tend to fade after 5-7 years and we've seen vehicles re-engined with euro VI instead with East Yorkshire and now First.

Reading, Nottingham and Bristol has gone for CNG in a big way; in the latter CT Plus had the first fuelling centre at their depot and working on behalf of First, with First then getting a fuel centre and 70+ vehicles at their Lawrence Hill depot. These buses aren't emission free, with CO2 being kicked out, but they are considerably lower than comparable engines and especially in terms of unburnt hydrocarbons which are a problem for respiratory ailments. However, the CO2 is also better than the methane that would otherwise be released into the atmosphere. It's probably the simplest and most straightforward of the alternative fuels, with the price differential in capital purchase and the works to build fuelling stations being the greatest obstacles.

I confess I don't know much about Hydrogen fuel cells and I'm not gonna frantically Google!

The issue that irks me is all the focus is on the dirty old buses but not the private car....can't upset the electorate.

Thank you for your information. The Bristol trial I thought was very different. MK went for opportunity charging under the bus but the one in Bristol I thought was something to do with being electric half the time and diesel the rest.

Visible infrastructure I know can be overcome but you need 1 pantograph per bus which could end up being costly and in a depot, that is a lot of infrastructure and space. If it's in the ground, you could technically make the whole depot parking area into a huge charging floor. This gives flexibility with changing parking layouts and if the charger is on the bus like in MK, other peoples parking doesn't present an issue. Just park anywhere, drop the charger then go to cash in.
Pantographs look fine for bus stations but I know from my local bus station, some buses don't spend long on stand and due to either stand slots or due to the arrival time meaning the stands are occupied and the buses then sit on a random stand or layover for 2 minutes while they wait for space. This makes the charging a harder as you need very quick attach and release and you need to be able to charge buses fast enough with the small layover. Harrogate I think was lucky in how they do their ops as the buses spend a decent amount of time on stand and stands are kind of reserved for services so there is plenty of time. A lot of bus station it wouldn't work though as it's almost drop and go.


CNG, thank you for the information there. The details I had on 'emitting more tailpipe emissions than Euro VI' comes from a Bristol Post (link below) news article on the matter where James Freeman says

“While Euro VI engines produce less tailpipe CO2 emissions, biomethane gas remains the more sustainable choice, as it converts byproduct of food waste into fuel. This means biomethane vehicles promote the use of renewable energy sources for the UK gas grid, as well as being less polluting than older diesel engines.

What I am basically getting is that CNG buses aren't better for emissions out on the road but when you look at the life span of the vehicle and the supply chain of the fuel, it's about as clean as electric. The cost differences that I can see though between CNG and electric are quite big (comparing Arriva Merseysides MAN gas buses cost to the Harrogate electric buses). I certainly feel as though CNG might be the way to progress. We just need to cover the cost of the infrastructure in depots. It seems to be overlooked though as an option by central government who seem to think electric is king (despite the fact it is kicking a can down the road)


Link to the Bristol Post article mentioned above: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/first-defend-decision-go-biogas-3849963

 

[CN04NRJ]

Cardiff Bus trialled the electric 7900 with pantograph charging at one end of the route - the range was terrible on the vehicle and it resulted in extreme late running on that service (or the vehicle being taken off/drivers swapping for it to run the service behind to stay on charge longer).

Obviously they were attempting to run it on a normal bendy bus schedule (service 6 Cathays Park - Porth Teigr) but it begs the question on how much more dwell time is needed for opportunity charged vehicles? More vehicles and drivers to convert a service from diesel?

I'm not sure that's the future myself, electric maybe, but not vehicles that can't run a full day without recharging.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think pantograph charging is perhaps the way forward

To be honest I think even that is overcomplicated - the driver can as easily plug a cable in before they spark up their cigarette as a car driver can. In any case battery capacities are improving, and I believe all the London schemes now charge at the depot only.

Sadly the MK scheme didn't continue beyond the trial, diesel Streetlites were substituted. But while it was in progress it did work, at least once they discovered they needed an extra vehicle to operate reliably (which itself was sadly a diesel one, a Wright demonstrator in silver).

The only slightly amusing thing about it was that they were fitted with diesel heaters. I'm surprised some sort of storage heating (powered up while on charge) wasn't fitted instead, as you rather kill the environmental credential if the "electric bus" rocks up smelling of diesel fumes.

 

[L401CJF]

Back in the late 90s Merseytravel introduced a number of low carbon schemes under the SMARTeco brand. It was part of an EU funded project called JUPITER 2 (Joint Urban Project In Transport Energy Reduction).

It included Natural Gas powered Dart SLFs on Southport Park and Rides, low emission Dart SLFs (early diesel particulate filters?) and electric Tecnobus Gulliver minibuses with a max capacity of 9 on a town centre circular in Birkenhead.

A very interesting report on this can be found here

Report

The darts were all converted to standard diesel and are now long gone. The Tecnobus gullivers continued on the E1 until 2006, they subsequently bought a further 6 slightly bigger Tecnobus Pantheons in 2002 which ran in St Helens until 2013 ish if I remember rightly.

In more recent years there has been an investment of Arriva Volvo B5LH Hybrids in 2013 for Wirral to Liverpool routes which are proving to be less than reliable, they also ordered MAN CNG buses for runcorn routes. In 2017 they ordered some BYD Enviro buses for the 26/27 circulars which seem to be ok, but are currently undergoing modifications as the batteries on the roof have been too heavy for the window pillars to support.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Bristol trial I thought was very different. MK went for opportunity charging under the bus but the one in Bristol I thought was something to do with being electric half the time and diesel the rest.

The Bristol vehicles are a mix of electric and diesel. They are geo-fenced so that they run on electric within the city centre; not quite certain what the extent actually is. They then have a diesel engine to partially recharge the batteries on the move, but also had induction charging plates at UWE to all top the batteries up. Much of the research was done by UWE and so the route chosen was the 72 (via Redland to UWE) but when that was converted to single deck, the vehicles again moved the 48A which also serves UWE albeit via a totally different route. I don't know what has happened to the infrastructure but by this time last year, the vehicles were confined to peak hour working on a route to Brislington and so avoiding UWE.

There's a bit more about in this article https://www.eauc.org.uk/electric-hybrid_buses_coming_to_uwe

Pantographs look fine for bus stations but I know from my local bus station, some buses don't spend long on stand and due to either stand slots or due to the arrival time meaning the stands are occupied and the buses then sit on a random stand or layover for 2 minutes while they wait for space. This makes the charging a harder as you need very quick attach and release and you need to be able to charge buses fast enough with the small layover. Harrogate I think was lucky in how they do their ops as the buses spend a decent amount of time on stand and stands are kind of reserved for services so there is plenty of time. A lot of bus station it wouldn't work though as it's almost drop and go.

Indeed, the ability to charge is dependent on individual circumstances including such things as bus station design. However, having particular stands or creating schedules with sufficient scope for charging isn't insurmountable. Arguably, even in depots, it may be easier and safer to have a rank of pantographs rather than cables trailing about, if indeed electric is seen as the future.

CNG, thank you for the information there. The details I had on 'emitting more tailpipe emissions than Euro VI' comes from a Bristol Post (link below) news article on the matter where James Freeman says

What I am basically getting is that CNG buses aren't better for emissions out on the road

It's a case not so much that CNG has lower emissions but the type of emissions is better. There are fewer hydrocarbons and less NOx which are particularly nasty for public health.

The darts were all converted to standard diesel and are now long gone.

As a prelude to the current generation, First Bristol also had a gas powered Dart that worked for a few years before getting converted to diesel and racked up 18 years service in total!!



When time and conditions allow, a trip to sample GNE's new Voltra service might be needed.

 

[L401CJF]

The Bristol vehicles are a mix of electric and diesel. They are geo-fenced so that they run on electric within the city centre; not quite certain what the extent actually is. They then have a diesel engine to partially recharge the batteries on the move, but also had induction charging plates at UWE to all top the batteries up. Much of the research was done by UWE and so the route chosen was the 72 (via Redland to UWE) but when that was converted to single deck, the vehicles again moved the 48A which also serves UWE albeit via a totally different route. I don't know what has happened to the infrastructure but by this time last year, the vehicles were confined to peak hour working on a route to Brislington and so avoiding UWE.

There's a bit more about in this article https://www.eauc.org.uk/electric-hybrid_buses_coming_to_uwe



Indeed, the ability to charge is dependent on individual circumstances including such things as bus station design. However, having particular stands or creating schedules with sufficient scope for charging isn't insurmountable. Arguably, even in depots, it may be easier and safer to have a rank of pantographs rather than cables trailing about, if indeed electric is seen as the future.





It's a case not so much that CNG has lower emissions but the type of emissions is better. There are fewer hydrocarbons and less NOx which are particularly nasty for public health.


As a prelude to the current generation, First Bristol also had a gas powered Dart that worked for a few years before getting converted to diesel and racked up 18 years service in total!!



When time and conditions allow, a trip to sample GNE's new Voltra service might be needed.

First Bristol also had 2 Tecnobus Gulliver battery buses, R101/102 DTC which were used on park and rides. They too were introduced under an EU project but it wasn't JUPITER, I can't remember which it was.

A number of the UK Tecnobus' still exist surprisingly. S251/2/4/5 AFA ended up at the University of Sunderland and were used as hydrogen test beds. All since scrapped. R101DTC along with the 2 surviving Merseytravel ones (S253/6 AFA) and is with a tyre shop in Dundee who intended to use them as eco school buses. I think insurance issues prevented it so they're just in storage now. R102 DTC was converted to an information office and was on ebay not long ago.

A number of the Merseytravel ones (4 of the 6) spent some time at Liverpool Airport doing staff shuttles around the airside.

All the Merseytravel Tecnobus Pantheons were scrapped bar one which is in the St Helens transport museum.

Out of a grand total of 14 Tecnobuses in the UK, there are 5 survivors.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First Bristol also had 2 Tecnobus Gulliver battery buses, R101/102 DTC which were used on park and rides. They too were introduced under an EU project but it wasn't JUPITER, I can't remember which it was.

Ah yes - the milk floats. They predated my life in the South West so never got to enjoy them https://www.flickr.com/photos/181868521@N08/49120343613/in/photolist-2hQAAQ6-aEePJL - photo credit as attached.

 

[edwin_m]

Reading, Nottingham and Bristol has gone for CNG in a big way; in the latter CT Plus had the first fuelling centre at their depot and working on behalf of First, with First then getting a fuel centre and 70+ vehicles at their Lawrence Hill depot. These buses aren't emission free, with CO2 being kicked out, but they are considerably lower than comparable engines and especially in terms of unburnt hydrocarbons which are a problem for respiratory ailments. However, the CO2 is also better than the methane that would otherwise be released into the atmosphere. It's probably the simplest and most straightforward of the alternative fuels, with the price differential in capital purchase and the works to build fuelling stations being the greatest obstacles.

In Nottingham at least, the use of methane that would otherwise be vented to atmosphere also means that the buses are carbon neutral, and I guess arguably carbon negative as molecule for molecule methane causes more global heating than the CO2 that's eventually emitted from the buses. I think the compressors are also powered by the same renewable source. It's not actually the same methane, as the producer injects it into the gas supply network and an equivalent amount is taken out at the bus fuelling station.

The more widespread use of such a solution may be limited by the amount of methane that's available and useable. I believe many sewage plants now capture and use it to offset some of the energy useage within the facility, and small-scale methane sources such as minor landfills may not generate enough for harvesting to be economic. But I've no idea what limit this might set on the number of CNG buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The more widespread use of such a solution may be limited by the amount of methane that's available and useable. I believe many sewage plants now capture and use it to offset some of the energy useage within the facility, and small-scale methane sources such as minor landfills may not generate enough for harvesting to be economic. But I've no idea what limit this might set on the number of CNG buses.

I'd heard that the amount of bio-methane may not be as plentiful for those reasons and also as we take steps to reduce landfill/food waste anyway!