Ticket type names should be changed

[redreni]

Moderator note: Split from

Regional Railcard Validity

Hi everyone. I have a question about railcard usage, specifically the Devon & Cornwall railcard. I understand from its terms that it can't be used for advance tickets, but I'm puzzled. Which tickets do I receive discounts on? 1/3 off all Standard class Anytime or Off-Peak tickets for journeys...

www.railforums.co.uk

The name of Advance tickets really shoudl be changed to avoid confusion.

Inflexible, perhaps?

 

[Mainline421]

Inflexible, perhaps?

Could just call it what it is. Ticket types: "Booked Train Only" "Any Train Off-Peak" "Any Train Anytime"

 

[Joe Paxton]

Inflexible, perhaps?

"Fixed"... or otherwise some unique brand name that cannot be muddled up (e.g. 'Diamond ticket', 'Dove ticket' ...?).

The "Advance" name just sets things up for confusion - especially with Advance (specified train) tickets that you can buy just minutes before travel.

 

[Haywain]

"Any Train Off-Peak" "Any Train Anytime"

They would be very unhelpful names as they would frequently be inaccurate.

 

[redreni]

Could just call it what it is. Ticket types: "Booked Train Only" "Any Train Off-Peak" "Any Train Anytime"

But "booked train only" isn't the only inflexible aspect of the tickets compared to most (super) off-peak and anytime tickets.

Those flexible ticket types don't normally have TOC restrictions. If they do, this will be stated and there will generally be an 'any permitted' alternative. Advances always have a TOC restriction layered on top of the booked train only restriction. Of course, if the booked train runs as scheduled, this makes no odds, but it can very quickly become a problem if your booked train doesn't run and the next suitable alternative is run by a different operator.

In terms of timetabling, the number of trains per hour or per day is considered. There's an unstated, underlying assumption there that if one train doesn't run, the next timetabled train will be available to the passenger. Pushing everyone onto inflexible tickets with TOC restrictions (because the flexible alternative is unaffordable or just poor value for money compared to other modes) means that a lot of the time, that is no longer the case. There are also TOCs that won't let you take the train before your booked train that has been cancelled, while others will.

If we adopted the German rule (and I'm aware Germany is no panacea) that tickets with a 'booked train only' restriction become flexible if the booked train doesn't run or is delayed by over an hour, then I would accept 'booked train only' as a reasonable, descriptive name for Advances which encapsulates what they are and how they differ from the other main ticket types.

 

[Haywain]

Could just call it what it is. Ticket types: "Booked Train Only" "Any Train Off-Peak" "Any Train Anytime"

In all cases, great names except when they are not true and become horribly misleading. Not all Advance tickets are 'booked train only' - TPE's Airport Advance, for example is actually a slightly flexible ticket, and a lot of Advance tickets have connecting journeys which are not thus restricted even if it's not as many as it used to be. "Any Train Peak/Off Peak" also do not necessarily have so little restriction on their use - many have route or TOC restrictions, and use of a railcard can also add restrictions. I would suggest that an 'Any Train' naming convention would create far more confusion than route 'Any permitted' already does for some people.

That is not to say that a case can't be made for a better naming system than is currently used, but it would need to take into account both how tickets are used (and restricted) and how they are retailed. The conclusion could be that the imperfect system that we currently have is no worse than any new system.

 

[Watershed]

Those flexible ticket types don't normally have TOC restrictions

On many flows (I'd almost say most) where TOCs are competing with one another, they do have TOC restrictions. Again, these are fine in principle, but the industry rules are far too inflexible as they prohibit excessing away the TOC restriction. That stands even if there's disruption and the TOC you're limited to is refusing to abide by its PRO obligation to re-route you. You could then be left between the invidious choice of refunding your original ticket and buying a new one, in the hope that the original TOC will reimburse you the difference, or being out of pocket even more by buying a brand new ticket and leaving your original ticket 'intact'.

It also leads onto another quirk absurdity of the system: the fact that you can excess away a geographical restriction on a walk-up ticket, even onboard the train without penalty, and for half the difference (where relevant). In some cases you'd even have the option to excess from a geographical restriction to a (pricier) TOC restriction! There's simply no justification for the fact that the reverse (TOC-restricted to "Any Permitted" etc.) is "verboten".

Advances always have a TOC restriction layered on top of the booked train only restriction.

Not always but yes, 99% of the time they do. Again, the fact that you can perform a change of journey to another Advance or walk-up ticket (in essence removing the TOC restriction) but not remove the TOC restriction on a walk-up ticket is absurd.

Of course, if the booked train runs as scheduled, this makes no odds, but it can very quickly become a problem if your booked train doesn't run and the next suitable alternative is run by a different operator.

In terms of timetabling, the number of trains per hour or per day is considered. There's an unstated, underlying assumption there that if one train doesn't run, the next timetabled train will be available to the passenger. Pushing everyone onto inflexible tickets with TOC restrictions (because the flexible alternative is unaffordable or just poor value for money compared to other modes) means that a lot of the time, that is no longer the case. There are also TOCs that won't let you take the train before your booked train that has been cancelled, while others will.

If we adopted the German rule (and I'm aware Germany is no panacea) that tickets with a 'booked train only' restriction become flexible if the booked train doesn't run or is delayed by over an hour, then I would accept 'booked train only' as a reasonable, descriptive name for Advances which encapsulates what they are and how they differ from the other main ticket types.

I entirely agree.

 

[Farigiraf]

Always thought that Rangers/Rovers should be renamed to Explorers (like in Ireland)
Also, Anytime/Off Peak Returns should be renamed to A/OP Open Returns to not confuse people into thinking they are the basic day return ticket.

 

[Mainline421]

Those flexible ticket types don't normally have TOC restrictions. If they do, this will be stated and there will generally be an 'any permitted' alternative. Advances always have a TOC restriction layered on top of the booked train only restriction. Of course, if the booked train runs as scheduled, this makes no odds, but it can very quickly become a problem if your booked train doesn't run and the next suitable alternative is run by a different operator.

Plenty of advances don't have any TOC restriction, and some flexible tickets do. I don't see how this makes the names any less clear.

In all cases, great names except when they are not true and become horribly misleading. Not all Advance tickets are 'booked train only' - TPE's Airport Advance, for example is actually a slightly flexible ticket, and a lot of Advance tickets have connecting journeys which are not thus restricted even if it's not as many as it used to be. "Any Train Peak/Off Peak" also do not necessarily have so little restriction on their use - many have route or TOC restrictions, and use of a railcard can also add restrictions. I would suggest that an 'Any Train' naming convention would create far more confusion than route 'Any permitted' already does for some people.

Aside from the Airport Advance the name holds true in all of those cases. You could call it "Booked Train Only and Connections" but considering e-tickets always specify connections now very few people would notice (something else to be fixed).

"Any Train Off-Peak valid only on Avanti" is pretty clear on what it is. Railcard restrictions already apply to "Anytime" tickets.

Any confusion it did cause would be made up for 10x over by the reduction in people buying off-peaks and thinking they have an advance. So then buying new tickets they don't need, or "chancing it" concluding the staff "don't care" and then using an advance on the wrong train and getting charged. Of course this would probably lead to a reduction in revenue for TOCs and Trainline though...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

or otherwise some unique brand name that cannot be muddled up (e.g. 'Diamond ticket', 'Dove ticket' ...?).

Please no, that would be even more confusing- some daft name that comes from the cocaine-fuelled brains of the same marketing bods that came up with the likes of Avanti and One? Each operator would want their own special brand name for their tickets that fit with their "corporate image", so we'd end up with multiple different names for the same sort of tickets.

I'd rather go back to the old system of savers and super-savers- which were themselves originally marketing ploys that simply hung around long enough to become established as the "default".

 

[redreni]

Plenty of advances don't have any TOC restriction, and some flexible tickets do. I don't see how this makes the names any less clear.

Yes, if you read my post in the context of the post to which I was replying you'll see I wasn't saying the current name is unclear for that reason, I was saying it shouldn't be changed to 'Booked train only' for that reason, since very often the loss of flexibility you incur if you choose the Advances that you are offered over the off-peak or anytime tickets that you are offered, also includes accepting a TOC restriction. I think most passengers overlook the potential significance of this in the event of disruption, since if everything goes to plan the TOC restriction is moot given the booked train only restriction.

I can honestly say in all the thousands of times I have searched for train tickets I have never, to the best of my recollection, been offered an Advance that didn't also have a TOC restriction, but the point that they do exist is well taken, as is the point that TOC-restricted off-peak and anytime tickets also exist. The fact that any ticket type could in principle have, or not have, a TOC restriction immediately multiplies the different ticket types with which confused would-be passengers have to contend. It multiplies it by the number of TOCs offering their own TOC-restricted fares on the route plus one (for the AP variant) and is thus a significant factor in the difficulty many people who don't travel regularly by train have in understanding the ticketing system.

Of course, if there were only one operator, then... But let's not go there!

The fact TOC restrictions were introduced post-privatisation by sneaking them into the 'Route' field doesn't help with clarity, either. Pretty obviously, routing restrictions and TOC restrictions are two different things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd call Advances "Value" - Virgin had this right in my view. The name clearly describes a concept people are familiar with eg in supermarkets - a lower priced option that may be inferior to the more expensive one.

Anytime is fine. Saver was fine for off peaks, though perhaps Saver One Month Return and Saver Same Day Return might be better to distinguish the two types.

 

[miklcct]

Anytime - no change is needed
Off-Peak - in general no change is needed, but simplification of the rules is needed.
Advance - change to "Fixed Train" like Lumo.

 

[Topological]

For the flexible tickets:

Any Train
Any ___TOC___ Train (e.g. Any Northern Train)
Any Off Peak Train
Any ___TOC___ Off Peak Train (e.g. Any Northern Off Peak Train)

That seems fairly clear and defines the restrictions. Day returns are not important since the valid date clearly indicates what can and cannot be done there. (Yes you could have Any West Midlands Trains Train)

For the fixed train (Advance) tickets then "Value" makes a lot of sense as @Bletchleyite says. It should be made clear that the conditions of use are EXACTLY as stated on the ticket (be that fixed train or whatever).

IF really necessary for tickets like the Airport TPE offering then unique names could be adopted. However, these are Value tickets and could have the return flexibility conditions stated on the ticket.

Since we are moving to paperless anyway, having sentences like "Valid on Transpennine services departing Manchester Airport between xa:00 and xb:00" is easily doable.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I'd call Advances "Value" - Virgin had this right in my view. The name clearly describes a concept people are familiar with eg in supermarkets - a lower priced option that may be inferior to the more expensive one.

I'd argue the name "Value" made more sense back then, but I don't think it quite cuts it now given the huge expansion in these type of fares. Many Advances can be pretty expensive (whilst 'value' can connote 'cheap' or 'budget'), and nor are they ideal for those who value some degree of flexibility. I think "Fixed" is probably best, it's simple and descriptive.

Anytime is fine. Saver was fine for off peaks, though perhaps Saver One Month Return and Saver Same Day Return might be better to distinguish the two types.

Saver isn't really descriptive though, it's just an old fare name well remembered by some - though I've come across Saver being muddled up with Advance often enough (an understandabe enough confusion I reckon). "Semi-flex" is arguably the best descriptive name.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd argue the name "Value" made more sense back then, but I don't think it quite cuts it now given the huge expansion in these type of fares. Many Advances can be pretty expensive (whilst 'value' can connote 'cheap' or 'budget'), and nor are they ideal for those who value some degree of flexibility. I think "Fixed" is probably best, it's simple and descriptive.

They aren't fixed, though, they're changeable. In airline terminology (which people understand) they are a semi flexible fare.

Saver isn't really descriptive though, it's just an old fare name well remembered by some - though I've come across Saver being muddled up with Advance often enough (an understandabe enough confusion I reckon). "Semi-flex" is arguably the best descriptive name.

For complex products a memorable brand name is better than trying to describe it. SNCF are fairly big into this.

 

[30907]

For the flexible tickets:

Any Train
Any ___TOC___ Train (e.g. Any Northern Train)
Any Off Peak Train
Any ___TOC___ Off Peak Train (e.g. Any Northern Off Peak Train)

That seems fairly clear and defines the restrictions. Day returns are not important since the valid date clearly indicates what can and cannot be done there.

They are needed to identify the ticket type when Day and Period fares exist.
There's also Super Offpeak etc which complicate matters.
Like the basic idea though

For the fixed train (Advance) tickets then "Value" makes a lot of sense as @Bletchleyite says.

Not convinced. How about Fixed Train?

IF really necessary for tickets like the Airport TPE offering then unique names could be adopted. However, these are Value tickets and could have the return flexibility conditions stated on the ticket.

The could use the same label as LNER - so Fixed Flex (OK sounds nonsense, but not Advance anyway!).

 

[Haywain]

Any Off Peak Train
Any ___TOC___ Off Peak Train (e.g. Any Northern Off Peak Train)

But there's no such thing as an "Off Peak Train". Restrictions apply to tickets, not trains.

 

[signed]

I find the Italian system quite good :

- Base (Anytime)
- (Super-) Economy (Advance)

Since there are no equivalent to Off-Peak, (Super) Off Peak could be kept

 

[Trainbike46]

For the flexible tickets:

Any Train
Any ___TOC___ Train (e.g. Any Northern Train)
Any Off Peak Train
Any ___TOC___ Off Peak Train (e.g. Any Northern Off Peak Train)

This seems fairly clear, but should probably be adapted for route restrictions, rather than TOC restrictions (which may well disappear with the new British Rail, if it happens), so something like:

Any Train via York
Any Off-Peak Train not via London

I do think the distinction between an open/1 month return and a day return should be clearer

generally, renaming should be part of designing an overal better ticketing system - which is hard, as is easy to see by how wrong LNER have gotten their off-peak removal trial (which is really just a reduction in flexibility and an increase in price)

 

[redreni]

I'd only support renaming everything if the fare structure was changing. And I'd only support changing the fare structure in the context of a big reduction in fares overall.

If there's a name of a particular ticket type that is though to be misleading then there's an argument for changing it, but of course, a tendency to change the names of things willy nilly is itself a cause of confusion. So I think changes should only be made if there's a real need.

I think Advance is pretty misleading when you can buy them right up until just before the train leaves (and not only can you, but Northern have created a system where most people do). I'm just unconvinced any of the alternatives we have suggested are not only better, but better by a sufficient margin to justify changing the name of a major ticket type, with all the confusion that would cause.

 

[Mainline421]

This seems fairly clear, but should probably be adapted for route restrictions, rather than TOC restrictions (which may well disappear with the new British Rail, if it happens), so something like:

Any Train via York
Any Off-Peak Train not via London

I do think the distinction between an open/1 month return and a day return should be clearer

generally, renaming should be part of designing an overal better ticketing system - which is hard, as is easy to see by how wrong LNER have gotten their off-peak removal trial (which is really just a reduction in flexibility and an increase in price)

I don't think putting the route/TOC in ticket type makes it clearer, as that doesn't look like a product name it just looks like information. It makes more sense to put that prominently right below:

Any Train Off-Peak Single
Valid only on Northern Rail

I'd call Advances "Value" - Virgin had this right in my view. The name clearly describes a concept people are familiar with eg in supermarkets - a lower priced option that may be inferior to the more expensive one.

The ASA might get involved then Many Advances do not provide good value considering the massive loss of rights for the tiny (often <£1) fare difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ASA might get involved then Many Advances do not provide good value considering the massive loss of rights for the tiny (often <£1) fare difference.

You could come up with something else totally unrelated - indeed you could come up with a nonsense word. A recognisable brand which people come to associate with what it offers (booked train only, changeable for a fee) is better than trying to explain in one word what it is. You could call them Green Fares or something, for one random example of making something up.

You could rename Anytime to Flex, as it is - but Anytime is also pretty descriptive, though. Flex might be better because it's not valid at *any* time - a Railcard discount or a route stipulation (or just Permitted Routes) may make it not valid for certain departures.

Saver was a better brand for Off Peak given that some of them do have peak validity (though most of those have now been converted to Anytimes, TfW seems to persist with them for some reason). Or you could go with Flex (Anytime), Leisure Flex (Off Peak) and something like Eco (implying both economy and environmental friendliness) for Advances, maybe?

Fixed seems wrong because they aren't - they're changeable.

 

[Mainline421]

Flex (Anytime), Leisure Flex (Off Peak) and something like Eco (implying both economy and environmental friendliness) for Advances, maybe?

That seems less clear than now. 'Leisure' doesn't really communicate Off-Peak times, and, 'flex' implies can be changed, not is already valid at anytime.

The solution is just to call a spade a spade, branding isn't really helpful and there is reason to assume that'll cause everyone to ignore all TOC and railcard restrictions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The solution is just to call a spade a spade

Problem is you can't call a spade a spade in one word very well. Hence why a brand associated to each ticket type works better - people come to associate properties to the brand.

"Fixed" is a ridiculous thing to call Advances because they aren't fixed, they are changeable. Fixed would be a good name for a ticket that was neither changeable nor refundable, but thankfully there are none of those (bar special offers like Seatfrog upgrades and Avanti Superfares).

 

[redreni]

Problem is you can't call a spade a spade in one word very well. Hence why a brand associated to each ticket type works better - people come to associate properties to the brand.

"Fixed" is a ridiculous thing to call Advances because they aren't fixed, they are changeable. Fixed would be a good name for a ticket that was neither changeable nor refundable, but thankfully there are none of those (bar special offers like Seatfrog upgrades and Avanti Superfares).

If you've got something simple like a spade, it's very obvious what you should call it.

If you've invented a contraption that might perform a relatively simple task, but who's inner workings and practical operation are a mystery to most people, it's less obvious what it should be called.

I think I'm persuaded by this thread that trying to name ticket types descriptively is fraught with difficulty. Unfortunately train tickets aren't simple. None of the ticket types have restrictions that can easily be explained in less than 10 seconds in a way that won't mislead. Colour coding the main types would be as simple a solution as any, frankly. The green one costs this much, the blue this much, the pink one this much; click on them to see all the restrictions.

If you really wanted to you could literally rename the types green, blue and pink, but equally you could keep the names as they are and still adopt the colours as a convention for online points of sale and physical ticket stock (though I appreciate that might be an issue for TVMs).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably worthy of note that BR had White Savers and Blue Savers, which became Saver and SuperSaver, which (largely) became Off Peak and Super Off Peak - so there's nothing new in the world!

Before merging into EE the Orange mobile phone network used animals to describe its different contact options - though I normally say that's a French thing to think up odd names for things, and they were owned by France Telecom at that point!

 

[Snow1964]

Anytime is fine. Saver was fine for off peaks, though perhaps Saver One Month Return and Saver Same Day Return might be better to distinguish the two types

There's also Super Offpeak etc which complicate matters.

As a general rule shouldn't use same word (especially as first word) for ticket types, makes it too easy to accidentally select wrong one on drop down lists, eg mobile devices. Get similar problems to having both 16-17 and 16-25 railcard, on choice of railcard dropdown.

Having (local) variations like super off peak should also be avoided, how many times have you seen off peak times defined, but super off peak times not mentioned.

My view is ticket names should be clear, ideally just one word, two max, and what amounts to basically same thing shouldn't have different names in different areas.

I would also ban names like TPE airport advance, where advance is already widely in use for specific train only, using same word as a well known single word ticket type with different rules is inciting customer to get muddled, and plainly not customer friendly

 

[Belperpete]

The term advance causes a lot of confusion because to most people it just means that you are getting a better price by paying early - it does not carry any implication that you are buying something different. Whereas on the railway, Advance tickets are very different beasts.

Many hotels offer flexible and non-flexible rates, which seem to be understood okay by most people. However, the important thing is that they spell out what the restrictions are, not bury them in small print, or expect you to know.

My suggestion would be for flexible, off-peak and non-flexible fares. With non-flexible fares, it would be spelt out that the ticket is only valid on the specified trains, except where stated otherwise.

For the flexible and off-peak tickets, there would still be cheaper TOC and route specific variations, e.g. valid on Avanti only or valid only via Birmingham.. Allowing people to save money by travelling on a slower route or on a stopping service not only benefits those passengers who may not be able to afford the higher fare, but it also spreads the load. Trying to simplify the fare structure by doing away with the cheap fares is not going to be popular.

And I agree about banning TOCs from dreaming up confusing names, like TPE advances that have a similar name but different conditions to other types of similarly named tickets.

 

[etr221]

My thought is that the first thing to be done is to sort out what the different types of ticket should be (and reduce the number of these?) - and I probably wouldn't start from what we have now; and then think of what the names should be be, so that they easily be identified, to avoid confusion as the sort of restrictions mught apply.