To what extent is an operator entitled to delay your exit from a station?

[gingerheid]

Thoughts coming to me after reading https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...es-and-railcard-app-not-working.250089/page-3

Greater Anglia are certainly failing the attitude test at Stansted Airport just at the moment - exits blocked off, signs don't match the exits in use, and long long queues to speak to unnecessarily surly staff who make no secret of hating the world.

I was wondering - to what extent is a train operator allowed to hinder your exit from the station? If you're not coming from London the queue to get out the station is also statistically disproportionate to the length of the journey you've made. For example the waiting time may exceed double the travel time from Bishop's Stortford, and may mean that the overall journey from Bishop's Stortford becomes slower than a bus journey would have been.

I get that they have a right to check tickets, but the statistical majority of the farce going on at Stansted Airport station is GA preventing you from leaving the station while not checking your ticket.

They're really doing a lot to try and make the bus / coach seem more desirable, even before taking into account the fact that their (and XC's) train service provision doesn't match the fact that the airport is as busy as it ever was.

 

[Merseysider]

Normally I'd say you have to grin and bear it, then afterwards fire off an email or letter of complaint and if the stars align you might get a goodwill gesture.

If you have a connection to make and need to pass through a gateline to get there, I would argue Delay Repay should be payable if the connection is missed due to the railway / its staff causing you to miss the connection.

I for one have made the decision to leave the "queue" (more like a crowd) on the way out of Man Picc due to there being a massive number of passengers and only two bods checking tickets - I walked straight past them (showing my ticket on the way), didn't hang around to hear their complaints, and got where I was going on time

 

[100andthirty]

Don't they check tickets on the train?

 

[Merseysider]

They're really doing a lot to try and make the bus / coach seem more desirable, even before taking into account the fact that their (and XC's) train service provision doesn't...

Without wishing to go too off topic, I'd be inclined to agree... I've taken NatEx for my last two return journeys Brum-Manc. On time, less than half the cost, only 30 mins extra journey time (as it's arrived ahead of schedule) and most importantly, guaranteed a seat and no hassle leaving the station at the end of the journey.

Don't they check tickets on the train?

In theory, yes/maybe. But I've never not seen staff checking tickets at Stansted.

 

[island]

You would be potentially liable to prosecution for breach of byelaws 1 (2), 9 (2), and/or 18 (2) if you failed to queue properly/pass through the ticket check properly/show your ticket.

In the unlikely event an exit queue resulted in the relevant threshold for DelayRepay you could lodge a claim, though I doubt it would be accepted, at first instance anyway.

 

[gingerheid]

You would be potentially liable to prosecution for breach of byelaws 1 (2), 9 (2), and/or 18 (2) if you failed to queue properly/pass through the ticket check properly/show your ticket.

So I think my question is what is the limit of these provisions. (I didn't know what they were, but I assume they exist, and I assume they don't give a time limit.)

For example if they asked you to queue for 12 hours to show your ticket that would clearly be unreasonable. But what is the limit of reasonable? Has it ever been tested? Or perhaps, to put it into more legal thinking, at what point does what they're asking you to do stop being queuing and start becoming too remote from "showing your ticket"? It's one of those questions that I assume would never normally have been an issue because if people are reasonable it won't be. However what we increasingly see on the railway is train operators who are anything but reasonable

In the unlikely event an exit queue resulted in the relevant threshold for DelayRepay you could lodge a claim, though I doubt it would be accepted, at first instance anyway.

That's useful to know - and is something that people at Stansted need to be aware of!!! Thanks!
Is there anything I could do to help prove it (assuming there isn't a handy situated clock to take a photo of...)?

Based on the last time I went through it's not that unlikely

Don't they check tickets on the train?

Coming from the north yes; almost always. Coming from the south; rarely (and in fact the reduced service is often so overcrowded that it might be difficult / impossible). However at Stansted; 100%, any time of day or night.

I kind of half get it - they have a massive problem with people tapping in with Oyster cards and then trying to get out at Stansted. However I only half get it; because they need to be staffed to deal with the issue (or else just create the ability to charge people that way, which is an example of the sort of thing a railway that didn't hold passengers in open contempt might consider doing).

 

[Sunil_P]

It's time Stansted became Contactless (at least for journeys starting from stations south of Roydon), like the other big three London Airport stations.

 

[Coolzac]

It's time Stansted became Contactless (at least for journeys starting from stations south of Roydon), like the other big three London stations.

Absolutely, completely agree!

 

[357]

Last year the staff at Stansted were about to sell my wife and I a full price ticket because they insisted her staff passes (from another TOC but valid on GA) were not valid.

I let the guy have his moment of foolish glory, and let him get to the point of waving a credit card machine in my face, before saying he should check with the supervisor.

The attitude was horrendous throughout the entire interaction, he was polite enough to me, but when he thought my wife was traveling alone he was extremely rude. The conversation started when she showed her valid pass by him saying "Well I don't know what that is but it's not valid on the train".

He became a totally different person when the penny dropped that we are both staff.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

The main problem with Stansted Airport (when abbreviated to Stansted one generally means Stansted Mountfitchet, the town from which the airport gets its name) is that there are no barriers. Not some, not a few, none. As such, staff ticket checking is mandatory.

It's time Stansted became Contactless (at least for journeys starting from stations south of Roydon), like the other big three London stations.

Assuming you mean the other big 3 London airports, if the consultation map for Project Oval is true from pre-covid (and I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise), then contactless payments at SSD are planned for phase 2. I'd assume this would come with installation of gates.

 

[357]

As such, staff ticket checking is mandatory.

No it's not.

 

[sheff1]

I for one have made the decision to leave the "queue" (more like a crowd) on the way out of Man Picc due to there being a massive number of passengers and only two bods checking tickets - I walked straight past them (showing my ticket on the way), didn't hang around to hear their complaints, and got where I was going on time

In my experience, the issue at the Piccadilly manual checks seems to be insistance in scanning e-tickets and the inordinate amout of time taken to do so. Walk past with an orange card to flash and you are through in no time. There are, of course, alternative exits.

As to the OP's question it will be interesting to see if anybody has ever got a ruling on the matter.

 

[357]

insistance in scanning e-tickets and the inordinate amout of time taken to do so.

If it's anything like my local station, the staff are constantly monitored by how many scans they are doing, even down to a day by day basis with managers asking why there aren't so many scans on certain days.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The OP talked about ‘exits blocked off’.

How many exits are there at Stansted Airport?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In my experience, the issue at the Piccadilly manual checks seems to be insistance in scanning e-tickets and the inordinate amout of time taken to do so.

Are ticket barrier (or onboard) railway staff financially incentivised to scan as many tickets as they can?

 

[gingerheid]

The OP talked about ‘exits blocked off’.

How many exits are there at Stansted Airport?

As constructed 4 (ramp and escalators at each end).

When I had the particularly long waiting experience the ramp at the bay platform end had been made entrance only.

 

[Sunil_P]

It's time Stansted became Contactless (at least for journeys starting from stations south of Roydon), like the other big three London Airport stations.

Ooops, I did indeed mean "London Airport stations"

 

[norbitonflyer]

I've missed connections at Wimbledon (to Thameslink, so 30 minute delay if you miss one) because of revenue inspectors causing dangerously crowded queues on the stairs leading up from Platform 5.

 

[robbeech]

Are ticket barrier (or onboard) railway staff financially incentivised to scan as many tickets as they can?

Im not sure if it’s the case with this operator but another operator pays it’s on board staff something in the region of a couple of pence per scan, or at least they did a couple of years back as an incentive.


As for what is reasonable, I’m unaware of any official figures, however in the absence of anything else, when PURCHASING a ticket the TSA and most operators “Passenger Charters” state that a maximum of 3 minutes or 5 minutes at peak time is considered an acceptable queue time. I would say that this could be considered suitable here too although it does seem long.

I certainly agree that delay repay should apply where applicable although in reality, enforcing this would be near enough impossible.

 

[gingerheid]

Im not sure if it’s the case with this operator but another operator pays it’s on board staff something in the region of a couple of pence per scan, or at least they did a couple of years back as an incentive.


As for what is reasonable, I’m unaware of any official figures, however in the absence of anything else, when PURCHASING a ticket the TSA and most operators “Passenger Charters” state that a maximum of 3 minutes or 5 minutes at peak time is considered an acceptable queue time. I would say that this could be considered suitable here too although it does seem long.

I certainly agree that delay repay should apply where applicable although in reality, enforcing this would be near enough impossible.

That's useful to know, thanks!

It could be used to make a very strong argument for giving up after 6 or 10 mins (your honour, I even waited double the time...)!

 

[Krokodil]

In my experience, the issue at the Piccadilly manual checks seems to be insistance in scanning e-tickets

Quite right that they're scanning. Quite a lot of fraud is stopped simply by recording the entry/exit.

and the inordinate amout of time taken to do so.

Are they using phone cameras or a proper reader?

 

[island]

So I think my question is what is the limit of these provisions. (I didn't know what they were, but I assume they exist, and I assume they don't give a time limit.)

The laws don't provide for a time limit.

For example if they asked you to queue for 12 hours to show your ticket that would clearly be unreasonable. But what is the limit of reasonable? Has it ever been tested? Or perhaps, to put it into more legal thinking, at what point does what they're asking you to do stop being queuing and start becoming too remote from "showing your ticket"? It's one of those questions that I assume would never normally have been an issue because if people are reasonable it won't be. However what we increasingly see on the railway is train operators who are anything but reasonable

I don't think a queue of anything approaching 12 hours is ever going to happen on the railway, but feel free to post a new thread in the speculative ideas forum if you'd like to discuss that to the point of destruction.

 

[Krokodil]

In terms of what is a reasonable wait, I'd look at the operator's delay repay threshold as a guide. Would be an interesting test case.

 

[bob007]

The law probably didn’t have a time limit because nobody envisaged it being a problem, which is the point that should be addressed.

Get more staff or gates and stop temporarily “imprisoning” the majority of law-abiding, fare-paying people unnecessarily.

 

[FGW_DID]

The law probably didn’t have a time limit because nobody envisaged it being a problem, which is the point that should be addressed.

Get more staff or gates and stop temporarily “imprisoning” the majority of law-abiding, fare-paying people unnecessarily.

Rail forum hyperbole alert!
Are you the same with any others areas / industries where large crowds of people may have to queue to enter / exit or is it just the railway you seem to have a beef with?

Presumably you’ve never had to queue for more than 30 seconds anywhere else other than a railway station.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presumably you’ve never had to queue for more than 30 seconds anywhere else other than a railway station.

Potentially an issue, I suppose, if arriving at an airport railway station, and you're cutting it fine as regards your onward flight departure time. That would stress me out!

 

[gingerheid]

Rail forum hyperbole alert!
Are you the same with any others areas / industries where large crowds of people may have to queue to enter / exit or is it just the railway you seem to have a beef with?

Presumably you’ve never had to queue for more than 30 seconds anywhere else other than a railway station.

We're not talking about 30 seconds, we're talking about 20 mins.

I also honestly can't think of any similar situation in any other industry. In particular, we're talking about getting out, not getting in. So an equivalent would have to be something like a concert promotor making you queue in a theatre after the concert while they check people's tickets and bags in order to leave.

And we're not talking about something like a crush getting out of a stadium where the number of people wanting to leave at the same time will necessarily cause an unavoidable delay, but a situation where the train operator has intentionally caused a needless delay.

The closest might be a delay at border control, but again if you don't like it then you have the (theoretical at least) option to turn round and decide to not enter the country.

 

[island]

I also honestly can't think of any similar situation in any other industry. In particular, we're talking about getting out, not getting in. So an equivalent would have to be something like a concert promotor making you queue in a theatre after the concert while they check people's tickets and bags in order to leave.

This occurs somewhat frequently at concerts where the artist has decided they're too special for people to take photos of and has therefore required phones and devices to be locked in bags which are secured with magnetic locks similar in nature to supermarket/department store security systems, there are then considerable queues in the way out as nearly everyone must wait for the bag to be released.

 

[AlterEgo]

The solution is of course for more people in this country to refuse to participate in the charade, and simply exit anyway. The company has had ample time to protect its revenue and is going for low hanging fruit anyway at the airport - something The procedures will soon change to reflect the new reality.

Good luck penning in 1,000 French people for 20 minutes at an airport station. You'd soon find out how much custom and practice depends on people's consent.

 

[FGW_DID]

Potentially an issue, I suppose, if arriving at an airport railway station, and you're cutting it fine as regards your onward flight departure time. That would stress me out!

Going by recent events, any queue to exit the railway station will be nothing compared to those at the airport!