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TOCs' Complaints Responses

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Deepgreen

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E-mailed complaints to TOCs - has anyone ever received a response from a TOC that actually goes anywhere near to addressing the complaint being made, at the first attempt?

I ask because I have not - every one of the many e-mailed complaints I have made over the years has been met initially with a generic stock response with little or no reference to the actual complaint.

I think it is a disgrace, and simply a waste of the TOCs' money to provide these pointless initial responses (which amount to little more than the initial automatically-generated acknowledgement of receipt) and which must surely be accepted by very few people, merely leading to further anger and repeated attempts to have the original issue addressed.
 
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Bletchleyite

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No, I haven't. Always been fobbed off with a standard response, or bought off with some RTVs in the case of VT, on one occasion those RTVs being about 80 quid less than I was entitled to.

To be fair easyJet are as bad.

I would actually happily see Delay Repay abolished if it would mean a proper complaints procedure could be afforded.

Part of the problem is that emails go in individually so each can take a month to be read. It would be better if a proper ticketing system was operated, such that once initial contact has been made the replies to that case are within a few hours.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Actually, thinking more on Delay Repay, to me it would make more sense that it would be handled by a national independent body, contracted out to an outsourcer if desired, who would simply check facts (you're either entitled or you are not, and the vast majority of cases are totally clear cut - the train was either N minutes late or it wasn't) and pay out where due, and bill back to the TOC with an admin fee to cover the cost of operating the service. Then TOC customer services could just deal with genuine complaints.

Such a body might also usefully be tasked with dealing with Penalty Fares appeals.
 

transportphoto

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Customer Service departments are often stuck in a situation whereby they want to give a response which outlines the process that they will now follow to address the issue raised, however can't divulge further information - perhaps due to staff confidentiality. To write a bespoke letter in response to every customer contact simply isn't time effective - an apology, outline of expectations and an outline of what will be done to rectify the issue internally as a standard response will suffice for most!
 

northwichcat

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To be fair easyJet are as bad.

If you buy a cheap product or service then perhaps expecting a high standard of customer service is expecting too much. However, rail is quite often not a cheap product or service so the TOCs should offer a high standard of customer service.

I found First/Keolis TPE were quite good for customer service.

or bought off with some RTVs in the case of VT, on one occasion those RTVs being about 80 quid less than I was entitled to.

VT seem to spin a wheel and where ever it lands decides the value of the RTV. I once had an over generous RTV for them not providing the booked seat reservation but then they just apologised on another occasion when I was entitled to a RTV.

Old Northern also sent me a complimentary day ticket when I was entitled to a £20 RTV after they cancelled a train and I had specifically requested a RTV when I sent them my tickets. Also in response about a very severely overcrowded service they sent me a generic letter about the new DMU order which had been cancelled and replaced by electrification and cascaded 319s long before I complained about the severely overcrowded service.
 
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AlterEgo

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E-mailed complaints to TOCs - has anyone ever received a response from a TOC that actually goes anywhere near to addressing the complaint being made, at the first attempt?

I ask because I have not - every one of the many e-mailed complaints I have made over the years has been met initially with a generic stock response with little or no reference to the actual complaint.

I think it is a disgrace, and simply a waste of the TOCs' money to provide these pointless initial responses (which amount to little more than the initial automatically-generated acknowledgement of receipt) and which must surely be accepted by very few people, merely leading to further anger and repeated attempts to have the original issue addressed.

As someone who used to work in a TOC complaints team, let me shed some light on TOC complaint responses and why they can be so poor (gen correct as of 2 years ago!).

There are three main problems and some lower-level issues which, IMO, cause this. The main ones are intertwined:

1) Volume of complaints - enormous. As passenger fares have risen, so too have the expectations of the customers who pay them. This is particularly acute at Intercity TOCs where there are naturally more things to break and go wrong (VTWC intercity vs LM commuter/regional, issues affecting VTWC only: Poor WiFI, Shop not open, 1st class food not served/inadequate/poor, window blind broken, 1st class lounge poor/closed, rewards programme problems, need I go on?). Added to this is the sense of empowerment the customer now feels; the average customer is a little more well-informed than they were 20 years ago. The customer now feels empowered to report bad service to the correct regulator or ombudsman, or publish it on social media. Thus, we have customers who are at once empowered, paying more, with higher expectations and the railway now includes more services which can all potentially fail.

2) Target setting - TOC complaints teams are routinely set targets for work output. This has two outcomes, in my view. The first is that it encourages agents to see each complaint as a piece of work which needs to disappear as soon as possible. The second is that, owing to the (often) repetitive and voluminous nature of complaints, TOCs now use systems which select stock paragraphs with signed-off messages to construct responses. So, you have a perfect storm of the agent wanting the piece of work to go away coupled with a system which actively enables them to do just that.

3) Management - sometimes poor, sometimes just overworked. Management will usually quality-check a proportion of agents' work, but it is just that - a proportion. Immediate management do not always "emotionally own" complaints, and have no face-to-face contact with customers.




Other issues are:


Disinterested staff - replying to complaints doesn't appeal to most people and many agents see it as "just a job" with no emotional ownership or overarching interest in the railway. I worked with someone who, before joining the company in her late twenties, had only been on a train once before in her life. Can you even comprehend that?

Confusopoly - the railway is very complicated and its complexity takes many people by surprise when they first join. You really do need to be quite self-motivated to unpick all the strands. Some complaints require pseudo-detective work to answer properly and appropriately.

Entry-level position - Answering complaints does not generate money (wait, I'll come onto that next!). Thus, the role of the complaints handler is an entry-level one. It is generally paid okay, but it tends to attract a lot people from outside the industry - see above for why that can be an issue - with only limited internal applicants. Sometimes, the level of English grammar and syntax is lacking in often young employees.

Short-sighted senior leadership - often fail to see that it is easier to protect existing custom than generate new custom, which ties in with the above.


All the above is my own opinion, not necessarily fact. But I hope it sheds a little light on what happens when you press "SEND" and wait a couple of weeks...

FWIW, I really enjoyed handling complaints, but I was usually allocated non-standard (interesting!!) ones which required a great deal more time to resolve, and therefore I was much less subject to issue (2) above.

EDIT: Interesting tidbit - before any compensation issued is taken into account, a complaint costs the company on average between £12-20 to respond, depending on the complaint medium, even if they are just telling you to go swivel.
 
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AlterEgo

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Actually, thinking more on Delay Repay, to me it would make more sense that it would be handled by a national independent body, contracted out to an outsourcer if desired, who would simply check facts (you're either entitled or you are not, and the vast majority of cases are totally clear cut - the train was either N minutes late or it wasn't) and pay out where due, and bill back to the TOC with an admin fee to cover the cost of operating the service. Then TOC customer services could just deal with genuine complaints.

Such a body might also usefully be tasked with dealing with Penalty Fares appeals.

Shush, that's far too much like common sense! :D
 

Deepgreen

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As someone who used to work in a TOC complaints team, let me shed some light on TOC complaint responses and why they can be so poor (gen correct as of 2 years ago!).

There are three main problems and some lower-level issues which, IMO, cause this. The main ones are intertwined:

1) Volume of complaints - enormous. As passenger fares have risen, so too have the expectations of the customers who pay them. This is particularly acute at Intercity TOCs where there are naturally more things to break and go wrong (VTWC intercity vs LM commuter/regional, issues affecting VTWC only: Poor WiFI, Shop not open, 1st class food not served/inadequate/poor, window blind broken, 1st class lounge poor/closed, rewards programme problems, need I go on?). Added to this is the sense of empowerment the customer now feels; the average customer is a little more well-informed than they were 20 years ago. The customer now feels empowered to report bad service to the correct regulator or ombudsman, or publish it on social media. Thus, we have customers who are at once empowered, paying more, with higher expectations and the railway now includes more services which can all potentially fail.

2) Target setting - TOC complaints teams are routinely set targets for work output. This has two outcomes, in my view. The first is that it encourages agents to see each complaint as a piece of work which needs to disappear as soon as possible. The second is that, owing to the (often) repetitive and voluminous nature of complaints, TOCs now use systems which select stock paragraphs with signed-off messages to construct responses. So, you have a perfect storm of the agent wanting the piece of work to go away coupled with a system which actively enables them to do just that.

3) Management - sometimes poor, sometimes just overworked. Management will usually quality-check a proportion of agents' work, but it is just that - a proportion. Immediate management do not always "emotionally own" complaints, and have no face-to-face contact with customers.




Other issues are:


Disinterested staff - replying to complaints doesn't appeal to most people and many agents see it as "just a job" with no emotional ownership or overarching interest in the railway. I worked with someone who, before joining the company in her late twenties, had only been on a train once before in her life. Can you even comprehend that?

Confusopoly - the railway is very complicated and its complexity takes many people by surprise when they first join. You really do need to be quite self-motivated to unpick all the strands. Some complaints require pseudo-detective work to answer properly and appropriately.

Entry-level position - Answering complaints does not generate money (wait, I'll come onto that next!). Thus, the role of the complaints handler is an entry-level one. It is generally paid okay, but it tends to attract a lot people from outside the industry - see above for why that can be an issue - with only limited internal applicants. Sometimes, the level of English grammar and syntax is lacking in often young employees.

Short-sighted senior leadership - often fail to see that it is easier to protect existing custom than generate new custom, which ties in with the above.


All the above is my own opinion, not necessarily fact. But I hope it sheds a little light on what happens when you press "SEND" and wait a couple of weeks...

FWIW, I really enjoyed handling complaints, but I was usually allocated non-standard (interesting!!) ones which required a great deal more time to resolve, and therefore I was much less subject to issue (2) above.

EDIT: Interesting tidbit - before any compensation issued is taken into account, a complaint costs the company on average between £12-20 to respond, depending on the complaint medium, even if they are just telling you to go swivel.

Virtually everything you have said here accords with my own experiences and assumptions. A further element to the increased expectations (and the ease with which modern communications media makes complaining), is actually the decline in quality (more with some TOCs than others!) of service offered while increasing the cost to the consumer.

BTW, your detailed and helpful response here pretty much demonstrates your statement that I have emboldened!

Thanks.
 

PHILIPE

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I had a great response from Scotrail a few years ago. I complained that were no screens at Dalmuir, a junction station, and with 4 through platforms and a Bay. There were choices of trains to catch in either direction which depended on the route they took to/from Glasgow. So, I complained to Scotrail asking them how should passengers be informed which would be the most convenient platform for the first train and especially as the next and the other stations in the Glasgow direction with just Up and Down lines had screens. The reply I received merely told me there were no screens at Dalmuir. :cry::cry:

The position has since changed with screens and lifts installed.
 
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HH

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Interesting tidbit - before any compensation issued is taken into account, a complaint costs the company on average between £12-20 to respond, depending on the complaint medium, even if they are just telling you to go swivel.

This sounds about average for a complaint; Delay Repay costs rather less, depending on how much automation the TOC has introduced (worth the capital investment if you have lots of complaints) and how many errors are in the claim (about 20% have manifest errors of fact that will either have to be corrected or queried) and how many potentially fraudulent claims there are - it won't surprise most of you that there are such chancers; I won't detail the checks that TOCs make to root out the fraudsters, but these add to the average time.
 

PHILIPE

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Wondering if anybody has ever lodged a complaint which complains about the TOC not replying suitably to the original complaint :):)
 

Bromley boy

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Has the instant gratification that can be gained from tweeting/publishing a moan via social media led to fewer official complaints to TOCs through traditional channels?
 
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E-mailed complaints to TOCs - has anyone ever received a response from a TOC that actually goes anywhere near to addressing the complaint being made, at the first attempt?

I ask because I have not - every one of the many e-mailed complaints I have made over the years has been met initially with a generic stock response with little or no reference to the actual complaint.

I think it is a disgrace, and simply a waste of the TOCs' money to provide these pointless initial responses (which amount to little more than the initial automatically-generated acknowledgement of receipt) and which must surely be accepted by very few people, merely leading to further anger and repeated attempts to have the original issue addressed.

No i never have. I always just get the same old standard copy and paste responses that they give to everyone. They normally end up completely ignoring your question.
 

Chris M

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Tangentially related, but years ago (earlyish days of the Greater Western franchise iirc) FGW had hired in a couple of sets of Mark II coaches topped-and-tailed by class 67s for local services around Bristol (mainly used on the Cardiff-Weston-super-Mare-Taunton route I think). I sent in a comment saying how much more spacious and more comfortable coaches were in comparison to the usual DMUs (mainly 150s and 143s with occasional 158s). The response was an apology and a promise that it wouldn't happen again!
 

Deepgreen

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Wondering if anybody has ever lodged a complaint which complains about the TOC not replying suitably to the original complaint :):)

Many times. I usually get to the bottom of it eventually, but it can be painfully hard! I recently concluded what should have been a simple complaint about one of the indicator screens at my station (Betchworth) being ridiculously unreliable for the five years I have lived there, and not working at all for the past ten months.

The first several complaints were met with the stock answers of how the manager had been informed (why did he need to be, as he allegedly checks the station every week!?). After being totally unable to get anyone at FGW then GWR to understand the issue, and having been blatantly lied to by the local manager, whom I managed to contact directly (he claimed to have visited the station and to have witnessed the screen working normally!) I went to my MP and Mark Hopwood (GWR MD).

As if by magic, I was then told that a specific part for the screen would have to be manufactured specially (and that it had therefore clearly not been working as claimed by the local manager). The screen was working again within a month or so after I went to my MP, and GWR sent me £100 in travel vouchers!

What a farce - all because 'Customer Services' don't have a clue about the railway (and all too often can't write a sentence either!).
 

northwichcat

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Entry-level position - Answering complaints does not generate money (wait, I'll come onto that next!). Thus, the role of the complaints handler is an entry-level one. It is generally paid okay, but it tends to attract a lot people from outside the industry - see above for why that can be an issue - with only limited internal applicants. Sometimes, the level of English grammar and syntax is lacking in often young employees.

Older employees can make spelling and grammar mistakes as well. I've recently seen job adverts written by 2 different HR managers where they both refer to 'office stationary' opposed to 'office stationery.' Sometimes such mistakes are down to poor English skills, other times it's down to unrealistic work demands meaning things get rushed.

EDIT: Interesting tidbit - before any compensation issued is taken into account, a complaint costs the company on average between £12-20 to respond, depending on the complaint medium, even if they are just telling you to go swivel.

Companies like to come up with figures for how much they estimate customer service to cost. However, would their estimate fall if they employ an extra person without acquiring additional office space or if they get a better deal on their energy/phone/broadband supplier?
 

Deepgreen

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Older employees can make spelling and grammar mistakes as well. I've recently seen job adverts written by 2 different HR managers where they both refer to 'office stationary' opposed to 'office stationery.' Sometimes such mistakes are down to poor English skills, other times it's down to unrealistic work demands meaning things get rushed.



Companies like to come up with figures for how much they estimate customer service to cost. However, would their estimate fall if they employ an extra person without acquiring additional office space or if they get a better deal on their energy/phone/broadband supplier?

Indeed, but I have had such a large proportion of horribly-garbled replies (not to mention the fact that they don't actually address the specific complaint made!) that it seems clear that the entire customer services function in most TOCs is not fit for purpose.
 

pdeaves

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Tangentially related, but years ago (earlyish days of the Greater Western franchise iirc) FGW had hired in a couple of sets of Mark II coaches topped-and-tailed by class 67s for local services around Bristol (mainly used on the Cardiff-Weston-super-Mare-Taunton route I think). I sent in a comment saying how much more spacious and more comfortable coaches were in comparison to the usual DMUs (mainly 150s and 143s with occasional 158s). The response was an apology and a promise that it wouldn't happen again!

By contrast, my son wrote to Wrexham & Shropshire (so this was a few years ago now!) complimenting them on the much better rolling stock than VT's Pendolinos (on that particular journey he had been sick on VT and recovered on the return on W&S). He got a very nice reply back from an actual human that had actually read his letter.
 
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By contrast, my son wrote to Wrexham & Shropshire (so this was a few years ago now!) complimenting them on the much better rolling stock than VT's Pendolinos (on that particular journey he had been sick on VT and recovered on the return on W&S). He got a very nice reply back from an actual human that had actually read his letter.

I always found that Wrexham & Shropshire seemed to have very good customer service compared to most other TOCs.
 

Tetchytyke

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Indeed, but I have had such a large proportion of horribly-garbled replies (not to mention the fact that they don't actually address the specific complaint made!) that it seems clear that the entire customer services function in most TOCs is not fit for purpose.

It's the same in most areas, due to automated software as much as anything. If a real person looks at a complaint, it is only to OK the computer response.

IME the only want to get a real person to actually read and understand a complaint is to go to Transport Focus. And even then, the TOC (yes, London Midland, I'm looking at you) will just blatantly lie.
 

Bletchleyite

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IME the only want to get a real person to actually read and understand a complaint is to go to Transport Focus. And even then, the TOC (yes, London Midland, I'm looking at you) will just blatantly lie.

This evening I made a complaint to LM via Twitter about this ludicrously misleading poster found at MKC (note that it doesn't say Monday-Friday, and consider what effect that might have). Let's see whether they get removed or corrected. I'm betting they won't.
 

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Bletchleyite

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the entire customer services function in most TOCs is not fit for purpose.

My experience of the customer services function in most businesses is that it is not fit for purpose. Companies simply don't take seriously what the benefits of having a decent handle on complaints can provide, and simply employ cheap staff to fob people off, or if they shout loud enough give them some compensation to go away. There is usually little or no effort put into actually resolving problems.
 

47271

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To be fair to Scotrail and Caledonian Sleeper I've never had anything other than properly considered and written responses from them when I've had cause to get in touch.

The only real farce I had was a few years ago when I emailed Scotrail to praise the actions of a particular member of staff. I heard nothing for ages, and to be honest I wasn't too concerned. Eventually I got a letter from them apologising that I had cause for complaint (I hadn't complained) and for the delay in their reply...
 

northernchris

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I contacted Network Rail on Monday evening, and had an excellent, detailed response from them yesterday. Perhaps the TOCs should follow their lead!
 

ChathillMan

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Well I am going on 4 month with a delay repay with VTEC, called them today. They said it was "resolved" in December and then told me they didn't send me the letter as they had a problem printing them.

I'll chalk that one down as a one off. My previous delay repay was sorted in 4 days!!!
 

Parallel

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I got a letter from GWR along with compensation for a delay today and the letter apologised at least twice for them taking so long to respond. I only sent the letter off about three weeks ago!:lol:
 

Bletchleyite

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Companies like to come up with figures for how much they estimate customer service to cost.

Bad companies, and there are many of them, see customer service as a cost centre.

Good companies recognise that they aren't perfect, and that customer service is an opportunity to really shine. One I'd cite is AO - they are always very quick to respond to issues and very quick to deal with them, and have the remit to offer things to help sort the problem out - e.g. I ordered a particular type of fridge freezer and had two arrive with dents[1], on being sent the third I suggested they added their "unpack and inspect" service for free, which they did.

But what customer service also is is a giant survey - you can build up a very good view of your business by analysing it and feed that into improving.

[1] I think their warehouse operations do need looking at, as they do seem to end up with quite a lot of stuff slightly damaged - this is just about the only issue I have had with them.
 

Bletchleyite

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I got a letter from GWR along with compensation for a delay today and the letter apologised at least twice for them taking so long to respond. I only sent the letter off about three weeks ago!:lol:

Three weeks is not in my mind acceptable. An electronic claim should be processed within a day or two. Indeed, has any TOC implemented electronic verification yet? As Delay Repay is a specific entitlement, a single-train single or return journey should be able to be paid completely automatically with no staff involvement whatsoever other than a very quick glance at the scans of the tickets. (VTWC have gone one further and are even paying for online-booked VT-only journeys without you even asking...)

It's this kind of delay that makes it impossible to have ongoing correspondence over an issue.
 
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