Todmorden to Sheffield ticket restrictions

[tomoufc]

Hello. Sorry for the dumb question, but is this valid via Manchester, including on EMR and TPE services: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=TOD&dest=SHF&rte=98&tkt=SHR

I can't seem to get the forum site to sell it to me, Departing Todmorden around 11:00 this Saturday and returning from Sheffield around 14:00 on Sunday. I've probably done something wrong though!

Thanks a lot!

(edited with proper link)

 

[drueberflug]

Just select "Open Return", and you should be good to go.

 

[tomoufc]

Just select "Open Return", and you should be good to go.

View attachment 178108

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I want to go via Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly (it's quicker, especially if you cycle between the two Manchester stations). Is the ticket vaild that way on non-Northern services?

 

[drueberflug]

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I want to go via Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly (it's quicker, especially if you cycle between the two Manchester stations). Is the ticket vaild that way on non-Northern services?

Unfortunately, though the ticket permits other operators, this apparently does not count as a permitted route (just like London Terminals to Stansted Airport via Peterborough).

Please do correct me if I am wrong, I do not have any access to non-public RSP databases etc.

 

[Watershed]

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I want to go via Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly (it's quicker, especially if you cycle between the two Manchester stations). Is the ticket vaild that way on non-Northern services?

Unfortunately it's not valid via Manchester.

Manchester fails the "fares check" as a potential Routeing Point for Todmorden - in other words, fares from Manchester are more expensive, so you can't go via there as it would present a potential loophole otherwise.

Only Halifax passes the fares check, and the Halifax-Sheffield permitted routes don't include via Manchester. Even if they did, you wouldn't be allowed to go through Manchester with it being a Routeing Point that has failed the fares check.

 

[tomoufc]

Unfortunately, though the ticket permits other operators, this apparently does not count as a permitted route (just like London Terminals to Stansted Airport via Peterborough).

Please do correct me if I am wrong, I do not have any access to non-public RSP databases etc.

Thanks. Yes I checked that, and the routing guide gives Manchester as one of Todmorden's routing points, so I assumed the same permitted route as Manchester to Sheffield would apply. Am I doing something wrong there?

Just seen the response regarding a 'fares check', thanks. What's my best bet fare wise here then? Thank you

 

[Watershed]

Thanks. Yes I checked that, and the routing guide gives Manchester as one of Todmorden's routing points, so I assumed the same permitted route as Manchester to Sheffield would apply. Am I doing something wrong there?

You need to conduct the "fares check" to find which Routeing Points are appropriate. There is a calculator on the National Rail website which does this for you:

Thanks. Yes I checked that, and the routing guide gives Manchester as one of Todmorden's routing points, so I assumed the same permitted route as Manchester to Sheffield would apply. Am I doing something wrong there?

Just seen the response regarding a 'fares check', thanks. What's my best bet fare wise here then? Thank you

You'd need to buy a combination of tickets. TrainSplit will suggest the optimal combination; I suspect it may involve splitting in Manchester.

 

[tomoufc]

This Walsden to Sheffield Anytime Short Return seems to be valid via Manchester, so why not the Todmorden?

 

[Watershed]

I will let someone else answer that on TrainSplit's behalf (@Adam Williams @OscarH @yorkie ?). I can't see that it is permitted via Manchester from Walsden either.

 

[tomoufc]

I will let someone else answer that on TrainSplit's behalf (@Adam Williams @OscarH @yorkie ?). I can't see that it is permitted via Manchester from Walsden either.

Thanks. Presumably if I had the itinerary that would make it valid?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks. Presumably if I had the itinerary that would make it valid?

Yes, you would be contractually entitled to travel in accordance with the itinerary. Technically speaking, only the exact time trains in the itinerary would be covered by this contractual entitlement; it may be tricky to make out that one itinerary proves the route is generally valid otherwise. So it is best if you choose your intended trains when buying your ticket.

 

[TUC]

Yes, you would be contractually entitled to travel in accordance with the itinerary. Technically speaking, only the exact time trains in the itinerary would be covered by this contractual entitlement; it may be tricky to make out that one itinerary proves the route is generally valid otherwise. So it is best if you choose your intended trains when buying your ticket.

On a technical level I understand that, but on a logical level it is hard to see how any staff member could claim that a route valid on a journey at one time of day is not valid at other times of day?

 

[tomoufc]

Yes, you would be contractually entitled to travel in accordance with the itinerary. Technically speaking, only the exact time trains in the itinerary would be covered by this contractual entitlement; it may be tricky to make out that one itinerary proves the route is generally valid otherwise. So it is best if you choose your intended trains when buying your ticket.

Thanks. That might be an issue as the this route is only attractive if you take away from some of the generous connection and transfer time in Manchester. By the looks of it, it's not possible to force the issue by specifying a shorter transfer time.

 

[Watershed]

On a technical level I understand that, but on a logical level it is hard to see how any staff member could claim that a route valid on a journey at one time of day is not valid at other times of day?

They could argue it was a mistake by the issuing retailer (not that I'm saying this is definitely the case here - I may have missed something), and so they are only obliged to honour travel on the exact trains specified. That said, I agree it's a weak argument.

 

[tomoufc]

They could argue it was a mistake by the issuing retailer (not that I'm saying this is definitely the case here - I may have missed something), and so they are only obliged to honour travel on the exact trains specified. That said, I agree it's a weak argument.

Perhaps the worst that could happen is that I'm asked to catch a later train? Might be worth the risk.

The TrainLine's giving me the same option. Strange.

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps the worst that could happen is that I'm asked to catch a later train? Might be worth the risk.

The worst that should happen, in theory, is for you to be charged the excess to the cheapest valid fare (or, in practice, combination of tickets) that allows travel via your chosen route. That would be the penalty set out in the NRCoT for travelling via a non-permitted route.

However in practice, as you will be aware the industry is not always effective at ensuring that staff follow the correct procedure. So you could be forced to buy a brand new ticket, issued with a Penalty Fare or have your details taken for prosecution. Is that worth the risk? I wouldn't have thought so.

 

[OscarH]

I will let someone else answer that on TrainSplit's behalf (@Adam Williams @OscarH @yorkie ?). I can't see that it is permitted via Manchester from Walsden either.

I've only had a cursory glance, so I'd wait for @yorkie's final judgement. But my immediate guess is it hits the "within 3 miles of the shortest route" short circuit, so you don't even get to RP calc or maps

Shortest routes:

57.05 - WDN - SHF

16.65 - WDN - MCV
42.14 - MAN - SHF

Walks have 0 length

So via Manchester total 58.79, less than the required 60.05

Full routes calculated in spoiler below. I haven't found the exact itinerary and compared it

Spoiler

WDN - Walsden
TOD - Todmorden
HBD - Hebden Bridge
MYT - Mytholmroyd
SOW - Sowerby Bridge
BGH - Brighouse
MIR - Mirfield
WKK - Wakefield Kirkgate
DRT - Darton
BNY - Barnsley
WOM - Wombwell
ELR - Elsecar
CLN - Chapeltown (Yorks)
MHS - Meadowhall
SHF - Sheffield


WDN - Walsden
LTL - Littleborough
SMB - Smithy Bridge
RCD - Rochdale
CAS - Castleton (Manchester)
MIH - Mills Hill (Manchester)
MSO - Moston
MCV - Manchester Victoria


MAN - Manchester Piccadilly
ADK - Ardwick
ABY - Ashburys
BLV - Belle Vue
RRB - Ryder Brow
RDN - Reddish North
BNT - Brinnington
BDY - Bredbury
RML - Romiley
MPL - Marple
SRN - Strines
NMC - New Mills Central
CLY - Chinley
EDL - Edale
HOP - Hope (Derbyshire)
BAM - Bamford
HSG - Hathersage
GRN - Grindleford
DOR - Dore & Totley
SHF - Sheffield

 

[tomoufc]

I've only had a cursory glance, so I'd wait for @yorkie's final judgement. But my immediate guess is it hits the "within 3 miles of the shortest route" short circuit, so you don't even get to RP calc or maps

Shortest routes:

57.05 - WDN - SHF

16.65 - WDN - MCV
42.14 - MAN - SHF

Walks have 0 length

So via Manchester total 58.79, less than the required 60.05

Full routes calculated in spoiler below. I haven't found the exact itinerary and compared it

Spoiler

WDN - Walsden
TOD - Todmorden
HBD - Hebden Bridge
MYT - Mytholmroyd
SOW - Sowerby Bridge
BGH - Brighouse
MIR - Mirfield
WKK - Wakefield Kirkgate
DRT - Darton
BNY - Barnsley
WOM - Wombwell
ELR - Elsecar
CLN - Chapeltown (Yorks)
MHS - Meadowhall
SHF - Sheffield


WDN - Walsden
LTL - Littleborough
SMB - Smithy Bridge
RCD - Rochdale
CAS - Castleton (Manchester)
MIH - Mills Hill (Manchester)
MSO - Moston
MCV - Manchester Victoria


MAN - Manchester Piccadilly
ADK - Ardwick
ABY - Ashburys
BLV - Belle Vue
RRB - Ryder Brow
RDN - Reddish North
BNT - Brinnington
BDY - Bredbury
RML - Romiley
MPL - Marple
SRN - Strines
NMC - New Mills Central
CLY - Chinley
EDL - Edale
HOP - Hope (Derbyshire)
BAM - Bamford
HSG - Hathersage
GRN - Grindleford
DOR - Dore & Totley
SHF - Sheffield

Thanks for this. Would this preclude the faster Man Pic to Sheffield services, which take the Hazel Grove route?

 

[OscarH]

Thanks for this. Would this preclude the faster Man Pic to Sheffield services, which take the Hazel Grove route?

That's also fine,

MAN - Manchester Piccadilly
LVM - Levenshulme
HTC - Heaton Chapel
SPT - Stockport
DVN - Davenport
WSR - Woodsmoor
HAZ - Hazel Grove
CLY - Chinley
EDL - Edale
HOP - Hope (Derbyshire)
BAM - Bamford
HSG - Hathersage
GRN - Grindleford
DOR - Dore & Totley
SHF - Sheffield

This is the route the EMR service in the screenshot takes, and it's 42.21, such a small amount extra you're still well within 3 miles

 

[tomoufc]

That's also fine,

MAN - Manchester Piccadilly
LVM - Levenshulme
HTC - Heaton Chapel
SPT - Stockport
DVN - Davenport
WSR - Woodsmoor
HAZ - Hazel Grove
CLY - Chinley
EDL - Edale
HOP - Hope (Derbyshire)
BAM - Bamford
HSG - Hathersage
GRN - Grindleford
DOR - Dore & Totley
SHF - Sheffield

This is the route the EMR service in the screenshot takes, and it's 42.21, such a small amount extra you're still well within 3 miles

Great thanks. I guess proving all this on a train if not sticking to an itinerary could be challenging, though.

 

[yorkie]

I've only had a cursory glance, so I'd wait for @yorkie's final judgement. But my immediate guess is it hits the "within 3 miles of the shortest route" short circuit, so you don't even get to RP calc or maps

Shortest routes:

57.05 - WDN - SHF

16.65 - WDN - MCV
42.14 - MAN - SHF

Walks have 0 length

So via Manchester total 58.79, less than the required 60.05

Full routes calculated in spoiler below. I haven't found the exact itinerary and compared it

Spoiler

WDN - Walsden
TOD - Todmorden
HBD - Hebden Bridge
MYT - Mytholmroyd
SOW - Sowerby Bridge
BGH - Brighouse
MIR - Mirfield
WKK - Wakefield Kirkgate
DRT - Darton
BNY - Barnsley
WOM - Wombwell
ELR - Elsecar
CLN - Chapeltown (Yorks)
MHS - Meadowhall
SHF - Sheffield


WDN - Walsden
LTL - Littleborough
SMB - Smithy Bridge
RCD - Rochdale
CAS - Castleton (Manchester)
MIH - Mills Hill (Manchester)
MSO - Moston
MCV - Manchester Victoria


MAN - Manchester Piccadilly
ADK - Ardwick
ABY - Ashburys
BLV - Belle Vue
RRB - Ryder Brow
RDN - Reddish North
BNT - Brinnington
BDY - Bredbury
RML - Romiley
MPL - Marple
SRN - Strines
NMC - New Mills Central
CLY - Chinley
EDL - Edale
HOP - Hope (Derbyshire)
BAM - Bamford
HSG - Hathersage
GRN - Grindleford
DOR - Dore & Totley
SHF - Sheffield

Agreed, it's valid under the shortest route rule.

 

[Watershed]

My mistake, I was overlooking the cross-Manchester transfer.

 

[tomoufc]

My mistake, I was overlooking the cross-Manchester transfer.

No problem. Appreciate your help and others'. Do you still think it's a risk not to stick to a given itinerary here?