Train Cleaning

[Yew]

Hey all, This probably isnt the right place to put this topic, However I kind of fits.

Im was wondering how TOC's schedule cleaning (interior and exterior) for trains. Because Ive noticed that some new/recently refurbished trains still look quite smart, However they sometimes seem a bit grimy. So I was thinking would a more internsive clean maybe once a year help keep them looking new and shiny?

For example EMT 158's They are very smart, but things like the rubber on the hand rests area bit grimy, and in the corridor connections. Same for the Toilets, vestibules and the sides of the sears in HST's. (nobody complain abutt saying those trains are really ncie, Im thinking in the long run, Could money be saved in refurbishment if better cleaning procedures where in place?)

 

[moonrakerz]

I think that this is an area that has fallen into the same category as the cleaning of road signs ! ie: leave them until they are unreadable, THEN replace them.
A "bean counter" presumably has calculated that it is cheaper not to do anything between major re-furbs and re-builds.

Having said that, I do notice a marked difference in the trains on my line ! The SWT 159s are MUCH cleaner, both externally and internally, than the FGW 158s, despite FGW using travelling litter collectors on their services.
Some of this is due to the fact that the SWT liveries (internal & external) look "smarter" and cleaner anyway - is this taken into account when a livery is adopted ?

 

[seagull]

I believe when trains are stabled overnight in most places they get a litter-pick, table-wipe and a vacuum cleaner over the floor, as well as bins emptied.

But this isn't enough to keep on top of the wear and tear, and it usually shows, even on refurbed units. Most TOCs do a 'deep clean' or equivalent now and again, there doesn't seem to be a fixed schedule for this.

Externally it's a jet-wash or a carriage cleaning device like a car wash for most trains - but again at some times of year this just isn't good enough to remove the worst of the grime, often caused by brake dust.

It does seem that replacing seat covers and carpets is viewed as the easiest remedy internally, whether this works out cheaper than paying for more thorough cleaning I really don't know. Part of the problem is that many trains are not actually in or on a depot for very long each night.

 

[LE Greys]

Silly question, but with overhead electrification (and at most Britannia carriage washers no horizontal brush) how on Earth do they clean the roof?

 

[Flamingo]

Silly question, but with overhead electrification (and at most Britannia carriage washers no horizontal brush) how on Earth do they clean the roof?

When it rains, a Mexican carwash! (nobody sees the roof ).

 

[Yew]

Just a shame that new seat covers and carpets doesnt fix everything.

 

[moonrakerz]

When it rains, a Mexican carwash! (nobody sees the roof ).

Funny you should say that ! The bit of the nice clean SWT 159s that is most obvious - is the lovely shiny roof..................

 

[seagull]

I have heard that when it is possible to clean the roof, using a purpose built scaffolding or some such idea, in the summer it actually helps to keep the air conditioning working, because a shiny roof reflects more heat than a soot black roof. Sounds plausible to me.

 

[thefab444]

Im was wondering how TOC's schedule cleaning (interior and exterior) for trains.

SWT used to do a deep clean of their units every month, but I read somewhere this has been change to yearly to cut costs. Despite this, their trains are generally clean and tidy.

 

[rail-britain]

Im was wondering how TOC's schedule cleaning (interior and exterior) for trains

I would suggest you contact each TOC to verify what the franchise requirement is and their policy to meet this
Equally, make a request to DfT and TS for the basic requirements

Train cleaning is measured, failure to adhere to the requirements results in a fine
Ironically, this fine can be cheaper than actually performing the cleaning
As above the usual solution is to perform basic cleaning and if the same asset returns failures to then advise the RoSCo of the issue

cough, NatEx (when they had the ScotRail franchise) managed to work out when the survey teams were planning and monitoring their rolling stock and so would schedule the cleaning around this, so as to avoid fines
TS adjusted this regime, but no matter how much you move the goalposts the cleaning performed is aimed to meet the minimum requirement and not what the asset actually requires, nor what the customer expects all the time

 

[devon_metro]

I think that this is an area that has fallen into the same category as the cleaning of road signs ! ie: leave them until they are unreadable, THEN replace them.
A "bean counter" presumably has calculated that it is cheaper not to do anything between major re-furbs and re-builds.

Having said that, I do notice a marked difference in the trains on my line ! The SWT 159s are MUCH cleaner, both externally and internally, than the FGW 158s, despite FGW using travelling litter collectors on their services.
Some of this is due to the fact that the SWT liveries (internal & external) look "smarter" and cleaner anyway - is this taken into account when a livery is adopted ?

Probably because the SWT fleet is very underworked in comparison to FGW, also they have their own dedicated depot for maintenance.

 

[T163R]

Siemens owns and operate SWT's depots.
Are they in charge of cleaning trains too ?

 

[Drsatan]

Siemens owns and operate SWT's depots.
Are they in charge of cleaning trains too ?

The only depot which Siemens owns is Northam which is where heavy maintenance for SWT's desiro fleet is carried out. I'm assuming any Desiros cleaned there are cleaned by Siemens on behalf of SWT.

At SWT's other depots (Salisbury, Fratton, Wimbledon Park) cleaning & maintenance is done in house.

 

[T163R]

The only depot which Siemens owns is Northam which is where heavy maintenance for SWT's desiro fleet is carried out. I'm assuming any Desiros cleaned there are cleaned by Siemens on behalf of SWT.

At SWT's other depots (Salisbury, Fratton, Wimbledon Park) cleaning & maintenance is done in house.

Oh I thought all the depots (or at least two) were operated by Siemens.

 

[Tom B]

I've actually noticed that East Coast trains seem much cleaner than previously - have they increased the number of staff?

Back in NXEC days I came across a loo with water all over the floor. Upon reporting this to the guard (being a slip hazard and probably taking 2 minutes to mop up) he told me that the cleaners on trains weren't issued with mops, as mopping was only done at depots...! You couldn't make it up sometimes.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would suggest you contact each TOC to verify what the franchise requirement is and their policy to meet this
Equally, make a request to DfT and TS for the basic requirements

Train cleaning is measured, failure to adhere to the requirements results in a fine
Ironically, this fine can be cheaper than actually performing the cleaning
As above the usual solution is to perform basic cleaning and if the same asset returns failures to then advise the RoSCo of the issue

cough, NatEx (when they had the ScotRail franchise) managed to work out when the survey teams were planning and monitoring their rolling stock and so would schedule the cleaning around this, so as to avoid fines
TS adjusted this regime, but no matter how much you move the goalposts the cleaning performed is aimed to meet the minimum requirement and not what the asset actually requires, nor what the customer expects all the time

minimum it may be but firsts idea of minimum is a far cry from nat ex, those were dark durty days!

 

[moonrakerz]

Probably because the SWT fleet is very underworked in comparison to FGW, also they have their own dedicated depot for maintenance.

That excuse doesn't hold too much water I am afraid...........The figures (see below) seem to show the opposite, in fact.
The SWT 159s I see most of do the WAT - BRI run, usually it is the same units on this route.

One of them starts from SAL at 0640 and returns there at 2334 having done: SAL - BRI, BRI -WAT, WAT - BRI, BRI - WAT, WAT - BRI, BRI -SAL - hardly resting in a quiet siding all day !

Don't FGW possess a carriage wash ? Perhaps they don't, looking at some of the trains. Just because SWT have a depot at Salisbury doesn't mean the Turtle Wax and lambs wool buffers come out every night.
Do SWT use a different, glossier paint ? Do the transfers all down the side of the FGW stock give a duller finish ? Are the exhausts on the 159s cleaner - they certainly sound different.

I don't really want to get into an argument as to WHY - I just made a statement that in my experience SWT's trains are much cleaner than FGW's as I watch them come and go - that is indisputable.

Actually, as there was nothing worth watching on TV tonight, I did a bit of hunting around.
Assuming that the same unit is shuttling back and forth for the day, which to the best of my knowledge is the case, I have come up with the following daily mileages for comparison. This is the max mileage that any one unit could do: ie: earliest starter of the day

FGW 158: Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour. 564 miles (possibly + 66 miles, can they fuel at Westbury ?)
SWT 159: Bristol - Waterloo. 690 miles
SWT 159: Waterloo - Exeter. 770 miles

I do 95% of my travel on these two TOCs. My idea of heaven ? SWT rolling stock, manned/managed by FGW. Hell ? you can guess !

 

[TEW]

I think the FGW local lines livery doesn't lend itself to looking clean. The newly painted 150/1s in the plain blue livery always look sparkling. It's not just because they have been recently painted either, the ones done back in December still look spotless.

The comment referring to SWT's under-worked fleet was referring to the fact that they require a smaller percentage of their fleet in service each day than FGW.

 

[Blindtraveler]

its always pleasing when a train is unavailable for early boarding because its being cleaned mid day. Some toc's let you on and the cleaners are working round you which can't be nearly as effective?

 

[moonrakerz]

The comment referring to SWT's under-worked fleet was referring to the fact that they require a smaller percentage of their fleet in service each day than FGW.

Not quite sure what you mean by this. My original statement concerned the 158s and 159s.
FGW requires 11 sets of 158s to operate Cardiff - Portsmouth, these are all 3 car units.
SWT has 30 sets of 159s, to operate Waterloo - Exeter/Bristol; these are a mix of 6/9 cars with 3 cars operating SAL - BRI.

The rolling stock requirements shake out to be pretty similar. The Exeter run is the longest; but with fewer stops, the rolling stock requirements balance out.

BUT - does any of this really make a difference to IF, and when, a set is put through the carriage wash ? It is not uncommon to travel FGW and hardly be able to see out of the windows. Just how long does it take to wash a 3 car unit ? Less time than my car probably !

 

[HugePilchard]

I've actually noticed that East Coast trains seem much cleaner than previously - have they increased the number of staff?

I wonder if they've got rid of the bit of abandoned tomato that I spotted a while back?

Note that this photo was taken a whole week after I first spotted it. Ewwww.

 

[moonrakerz]

The front half of the leading car of the 158 looked as though it used to be shiny ! But overall, again, the 158 just looked "grubby"

 

[ainsworth74]

Note that this photo was taken a whole week after I first spotted it. Ewwww.

Did you ever consider telling someone about it?

 

[HugePilchard]

Had I seen the guard, I would have. But my regular journey was only Durham - Darlington, so most of the time they didn't manage to make it into the carriage I sat in.

Now, EC used to have signs up at the end of the passenger saloons with a unique code you could use in a text message that would identify the vehicle you were in if you had any comments; I did have a look for one of them, but couldn't see one either.

 

[ainsworth74]

Had I seen the guard, I would have. But my regular journey was only Durham - Darlington, so most of the time they didn't manage to make it into the carriage I sat in.

Ahh fair enough then

 

[TEW]

Not quite sure what you mean by this. My original statement concerned the 158s and 159s.
FGW requires 11 sets of 158s to operate Cardiff - Portsmouth, these are all 3 car units.
SWT has 30 sets of 159s, to operate Waterloo - Exeter/Bristol; these are a mix of 6/9 cars with 3 cars operating SAL - BRI.

The rolling stock requirements shake out to be pretty similar. The Exeter run is the longest; but with fewer stops, the rolling stock requirements balance out.

BUT - does any of this really make a difference to IF, and when, a set is put through the carriage wash ? It is not uncommon to travel FGW and hardly be able to see out of the windows. Just how long does it take to wash a 3 car unit ? Less time than my car probably !

SWT requires a smaller percentage of units in service each day than FGW. If you pass through Salisbury there are always loads of 158s and 159s sitting on the depot. If you passed St.Phillips Marsh in the day you'd be lucky to see one 158 on the depot. SWT have some more units which are used only in the peaks, sitting around the rest of the day. FGW just doesn't have that spare capacity in its 158 fleet. SWT probably have time to wash the trains when they are sitting around the depot, or in between the peaks.

 

[Flamingo]

Regarding cleaning the inside of trains, from a practical point of view (as a poor sod who has to walk through picking up rubbish on occasions), why do people think it is somewhat "tidier" to stick the rubbish as far underneath the seat as possible?

It's a lot easier to clean if all rubbish is sitting on tables / seats / tray-backs, rather than having to scrabble around on the floor for it.

Thanks for your help!

 

[LE Greys]

Regarding cleaning the inside of trains, from a practical point of view (as a poor sod who has to walk through picking up rubbish on occasions), why do people think it is somewhat "tidier" to stick the rubbish as far underneath the seat as possible?

It's a lot easier to clean if all rubbish is sitting on tables / seats / tray-backs, rather than having to scrabble around on the floor for it.

Thanks for your help!

Because of what some people are - idiots.

 

[Flamingo]

Because of what some people are - idiots.

I think they think it's better, as some seem to have gone to a lot of trouble, bagging it up etc. Putting it out of sight then seems to be the next move, but the final step is the one that causes the problem.

 

[BestWestern]

Not quite sure what you mean by this. My original statement concerned the 158s and 159s.
FGW requires 11 sets of 158s to operate Cardiff - Portsmouth, these are all 3 car units.
SWT has 30 sets of 159s, to operate Waterloo - Exeter/Bristol; these are a mix of 6/9 cars with 3 cars operating SAL - BRI.

The rolling stock requirements shake out to be pretty similar. The Exeter run is the longest; but with fewer stops, the rolling stock requirements balance out.

BUT - does any of this really make a difference to IF, and when, a set is put through the carriage wash ? It is not uncommon to travel FGW and hardly be able to see out of the windows. Just how long does it take to wash a 3 car unit ? Less time than my car probably !

The major difference between FGW's and SWT's Sprinter fleets and their upkeep concerns the operational requirement for FGW units to be away from home depots on a regular basis. Units are often stabled at Westbury, Weymouth, Gloucester etc where there are no carriage wash facilities available, and the only maintenance provision is a mobile technician who attends when required. This can have a big impact on the ability to keep the sets looking at their best. SWT on the other hand have the luxury of their units being on shed most nights, with the operational area of their Sprinter fleet being much more contained than FGW's. Having said that, FGW do suffer from poor availability of units and subsequent pressure to keep things in service, which in turn leads to many repairs being deferred for far too long, giving passengers the impression that nothing is ever attended to. The cab ends of the 158 fleet are suffering from early deterioration of the paintwork, which looks very shabby. There are well documented problems with St Philips Marsh depot simply not having the space, time or manpower to service both the West unit and HST fleets to an acceptable standard, and sadly this is quite apparent on many of the units. There are whispers that Exeter is to take over more of the West fleet maintenance in order to ease the pressure at SPM, but this may or may not be the case.

SWT certainly appear to have a much better spare margin within their fleet, being able to hire a set to FGW daily, providing cover for EMT whilst their sets were refurbed, and managing to find a 158 to take over the electrified Lymington branch, all whilst still running the maintstream service! Very impressive in the current climate!