Train fine.. help please

[AndroidAsh]

Good afternoon,

I live in Preston and work in Manchester. I use to get the train from Preston but since the closure of the 'cheap' car park on Christian Road has closed, I've been travelling to and from Leyland to Deansgate/Oxford Road.

I bought my tickets off Trainline they provided me with a split tickets Leyland - Buckshaw and Buckshaw to Deansgate. Almost every time it works out cheaper for an anytime return.

So on Thursday something came up and I needed to leave work a little earlier. I looked and their was a train 30 mins before the train I normally get 16:08 from deansgate, I had a glancing look at my ticket and saw the anytime return and just heading for the train.

Got on the train and the conductor requested to scan the tickets which I happily provided and it was confirmed the Deansgate to Buckshaw was for the specific 16:08 train and the Buckshaw to Leyland was an anytime ticket, which is a massive oversight on my part! I apologised profusely and I take accountability for the mistake. I did say I would be more than happy to pay for a new ticket or get off (as we were about to pull into Bolton) and I'll wait for my actual train.. the conductor just point black refused and without any hesitation just said I'm being fined! After being polite and trying to reason with them. They said they can no longer purchase tickets from the them any more and when I asked why have you got all the paraphernalia and technology on your person why can't you and again they just refused. I even said I can go online now on my phone and buy a ticket and they again refused.

I have been fined £112 which the signs on the train say a fine upto £100 so why more? Also I feel it's been really harsh! I had paid for a train ticket granted their was a honest mistake on my part, but to fine me as if I jumped on the train to grab a freebie is just insulting and lacks any common sense (I know the irony)

Has any one else been in this situation? Have you contested the fine and we're you successfully?

I'm not claiming I'm innocent but again it was an honest mistake and I had a full price paid ticket!

Your help would be greatly appreciated and if I have to stump up the fine then so be it..

 

[Hadders]

It sounds as though you have been issued with a Penalty Fare, can you upload a copy in this thread (with any personal details redacted) so we can be sure.

A Penalty Fare is a higher than normal fare that is issued when someone doesn’t comply with the ticketing rules. Technically it isn’t a fine - only a court can impose a fine as a punishment following a conviction.

A Penalty Fare is normally £100 plus the appropriate fare. If it is paid within 21 days it is £50 plus the appropriate fare.

 

[WesternLancer]

Good afternoon,

I live in Preston and work in Manchester. I use to get the train from Preston but since the closure of the 'cheap' car park on Christian Road has closed, I've been travelling to and from Leyland to Deansgate/Oxford Road.

I bought my tickets off Trainline they provided me with a split tickets Leyland - Buckshaw and Buckshaw to Deansgate. Almost every time it works out cheaper for an anytime return.

So on Thursday something came up and I needed to leave work a little earlier. I looked and their was a train 30 mins before the train I normally get 16:08 from deansgate, I had a glancing look at my ticket and saw the anytime return and just heading for the train.

Got on the train and the conductor requested to scan the tickets which I happily provided and it was confirmed the Deansgate to Buckshaw was for the specific 16:08 train and the Buckshaw to Leyland was an anytime ticket, which is a massive oversight on my part! I apologised profusely and I take accountability for the mistake. I did say I would be more than happy to pay for a new ticket or get off (as we were about to pull into Bolton) and I'll wait for my actual train.. the conductor just point black refused and without any hesitation just said I'm being fined! After being polite and trying to reason with them. They said they can no longer purchase tickets from the them any more and when I asked why have you got all the paraphernalia and technology on your person why can't you and again they just refused. I even said I can go online now on my phone and buy a ticket and they again refused.

I have been fined £112 which the signs on the train say a fine upto £100 so why more? Also I feel it's been really harsh! I had paid for a train ticket granted their was a honest mistake on my part, but to fine me as if I jumped on the train to grab a freebie is just insulting and lacks any common sense (I know the irony)

Has any one else been in this situation? Have you contested the fine and we're you successfully?

I'm not claiming I'm innocent but again it was an honest mistake and I had a full price paid ticket!

Your help would be greatly appreciated and if I have to stump up the fine then so be it..

Would help if you could upload what you were given by the staff on the train (copy with any of your details blanked out) so people can check the situation
but

This sounds like a Penalty Fare (PF) to me to me - is that correct? That is a Penalty of £100 (reduced to £50 if paid promptly) + the cost of the fare. So is £12 likely to be the cost of the anytime single Deansgate to Buckshaw*? - this is because the Advance ticket on the set train is considered to have no value and no validity on any other train.

I fear Appealing a Penalty Fare issued to you due to this mistake will not be successful - but there are other benefits to submitting an Appeal (it is often said on here that it prevents a potential prosecution for fare evasion). An appeal 'stops the clock' on the prompt payment discount of the PF.

But when you get various advice on here you can weigh up if you want to Appeal or just pay quickly to reduce the sum to £50 + fare

It is unfortunate with these Advance tickets but you need to be very careful as they are sold at a discount with punitive terms applied that prevent use on any alternative train to the one specified, that is the 'price you pay' for the lack of flexibility - I don't bother with them unless a big saving is to be made as a % of the price of a more flexible ticket. But I can tell you knew that and just made an 'honest mistake' for which you now feel an unfairly large penalty is being levied.

* I see Manchester Stns - Buckshaw Parkway is £12.90 anytime single / £12.50 off peak single if that is the correct fare that would apply from Deansgate

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So is £12 likely to be the cost of the anytime single Deansgate to Buckshaw? - this is because the Advance ticket on the set train is considered to have no value and no validity on any other train.

An Anytime Day Single from Deansgate to Buckshaw Parkway (or Leyland) is £12.90.

 

[AndroidAsh]

Please see the attached penalty notice.

My further questions the fact this could of been easily remedied without issue a fine, and they have all the equipment to purchase tickets.. why don't they?

Also just a curious question but but do conductor have insentients on issuing fines (it's just has the conducts badge number)

**I because this really didn't sit right with me I wanted to see if anything could done before I paid.. thankfully it's not due until after payday so I had time to do this research**

 

[Hadders]

Please see the attached penalty notice.

My further questions the fact this could of been easily remedied without issue a fine, and they have all the equipment to purchase tickets.. why don't they?

Also just a curious question but but do conductor have insentients on issuing fines (it's just has the conducts badge number)

This is a Penalty Fare.

The reason these are issued rather than simply letting people remedy mistakes by buying the correct fare onboard is because fare evasion is a massive issue on the railway and many would simply not buy a ticket and pay if challenged. It’s unfortunate that you didn’t intend to travel with an incorrect ticket but where do you draw the line, in reality everyone issued with a Penalty Fare will claim they should be an exception.

As far as I know revenue inspectors are not incentivised by number of Penalty Fares issued.

 

[skyhigh]

My further questions the fact this could of been easily remedied without issue a fine, and they have all the equipment to purchase tickets.. why don't they?

Conductors can't issue Penalty Fares. This was a Revenue Inspector. They have equipment to sell tickets where facilities were not available, otherwise they issue Penalty Fares.

Also just a curious question but but do conductor have insentients on issuing fines (it's just has the conducts badge number)

No they don't, and again this was not a Conductor.

**I because this really didn't sit right with me I wanted to see if anything could done before I paid.. thankfully it's not due until after payday so I had time to do this research**

You can appeal - however it appears the Penalty Fare was issued correctly and you'd have to find a procedural reason (e.g. incorrect/missing signage) to get the PF overturned on appeal.

 

[WesternLancer]

Please see the attached penalty notice.

My further questions the fact this could of been easily remedied without issue a fine, and they have all the equipment to purchase tickets.. why don't they?

Also just a curious question but but do conductor have insentients on issuing fines (it's just has the conducts badge number)

**I because this really didn't sit right with me I wanted to see if anything could done before I paid.. thankfully it's not due until after payday so I had time to do this research**

I would say that your 1st question is tied up with the wider issue of the govt wanting to get rid of train gaurds and turn the railway into a reduced staff / reduced service operation where they do not need to have staff on board to sell tickets as part of a service, but instead operate to more punitive checks on ticket validity where anything wrong is met with a punitive penalty to incentivize people not to do it again (or possibly buy a car and give up train travel some might say....)

They (train company / govt) might also say that sadly deliberate fare evasion is pretty endemic in parts of the UK and they have decided to take a tougher line on it and sadly 'honest mistakes' get caught up in all this, because there are plenty of people who do get on trains with no ticket and only bother to pay if the guard comes round (I had a well paid colleague who commuted and took this attitude on a daily basis and often mentioned how rarely on a busy train he ever had to pay a fare - both entry and exit stations in his case un-barriered) - often called 'pay when challenged' on this forum.

Sorry, don't know if there is a commission on PFs issued - but there was (may still be) a commission on tickets issued on board by gaurds - which of course would have given the incentive for the staff member to actually sell you the correct ticket and not issue a PF

EDIT - I note from recent posts that the PF has come from Revenue Protection staff - who will almost always take a firm line - , not a guard. It may have been that if a guard had noticed you may have got offered the option of buying a new ticket, but such inconsistencies create their own problems for passengers who do not understand why one day they can buy on board, the next day they get a PF....

 

[skyhigh]

Sorry, don't know if there is a commission on PFs issued - but there was (may still be) a commission on tickets issued on board by gaurds - which of course would have given the incentive for the staff member to actually sell you the correct ticket and not issue a PF

RPIs (as the staff member encountered here) do not get commission on ticket sales or PFs.

 

[WesternLancer]

RPIs (as the staff member encountered here) do not get commission on ticket sales or PFs.

Thanks - yes, I clocked that no doubt as you were posting the facts. Will no doubt be helpful to the OP.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does the notice not have to give the grounds on which it was issued to be valid under the Regulations?

I notice this is missing on the notice.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does the notice not have to give the grounds on which it was issued to be valid under the Regulations?

I notice this is missing on the notice.

Do you mean the "unable to show a valid ticket for your entire journey" reference, or something more than that?

 

[fandroid]

Note that the Penalty Fare Notice was issued on 28 September, so the reduced £50 penalty (£62.90 in total) will apply for a while yet.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you mean the "unable to show a valid ticket for your entire journey" reference, or something more than that?

The “Grounds” section is completely blank. I’m wondering if that has to give a valid ground to be a compliant notice.

 

[MrJeeves]

The “Grounds” section is completely blank. I’m wondering if that has to give a valid ground to be a compliant notice.

I would think so...

Section 5(2) of the PF regs:

(2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged—

(b)an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare;

From: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/5

I would say that "Other (PFN)" doesn't really constitute a reason, hence the PF issued could be regarded as invalid as it doesn't meet the criteria of the regulations. The question is whether the paragraph about being unable to show a valid ticket satisfies this criteria.

 

[WesternLancer]

I would think so...

Section 5(2) of the PF regs:


From: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/5

I would say that "Other (PFN)" doesn't really constitute a reason, hence the PF issued could be regarded as invalid as it doesn't meet the criteria of the regulations. The question is whether the paragraph about being unable to show a valid ticket satisfies this criteria.

Surely worth the OP lodging an Appeal on that basis? I can't see what they would have to lose by doing so. Even if it fails the sum they have to pay remains the same.

 

[MrJeeves]

Surely worth the OP lodging an Appeal on that basis? I can't see what they would have to lose by doing so. Even if it fails the sum they have to pay remains the same.

Exactly, and bars the TOC from prosecuting if they want (provided the appeal is rejected/accepted).

 

[AndroidAsh]

Thank you for all your comments, just so I'm clear their is a possible appeal due to the issue reason being other and the grounds information being blank. And that Section 5(2) of the regulations state "an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare"

Just to be clear the ticket does state at the top it's been being unable to show a valid ticket would that not cover it?

Just also noticed they have put my DOB wrong on the ticket also, of that make any difference

 

[MrJeeves]

Just to be clear the ticket does state at the top it's been being unable to show a valid ticket would that not cover it?

This is what we don't know for sure.

My interpretation is that you should have a reason for why your ticket was not valid, which is not mentioned on the PF receipt you were given.

You get 3 appeals of your penalty fare, and any appeal you do make stops the clock on the number of days before the cost goes up. Essentially, you don't really lose anything by appealing.

The other potential appeal factor is station signage. The station you board the service at must have adequate signage as per the regulations. Many station posters in fact have incorrect wording that does not match the regulations, which could be another subject of a technical appeal. For example, the wording of the legislation states a notice must say "[...] you may be charged a Penalty Fare" where most posters incorrectly state "[...] you may have to pay a Penalty Fare" as per this example picture I took at Reading Green Park below.

 

[transportphoto]

The PF also appears to have been indirectly issued right the way through to Buckshaw Parkway, rather than the next station stop. This would be another grounds for appeal.

 

[AndroidAsh]

This is what we don't know for sure.

My interpretation is that you should have a reason for why your ticket was not valid, which is not mentioned on the PF receipt you were given.

You get 3 appeals of your penalty fare, and any appeal you do make stops the clock on the number of days before the cost goes up. Essentially, you don't really lose anything by appealing.

The other potential appeal factor is station signage. The station you board the service at must have adequate signage as per the regulations. Many station posters in fact have incorrect wording that does not match the regulations, which could be another subject of a technical appeal. For example, the wording of the legislation states a notice must say "[...] you may be charged a Penalty Fare" where most posters incorrectly state "[...] you may have to pay a Penalty Fare" as per this example picture I took at Reading Green Park below.

View attachment 143879

Thank you once again! It's very much appreciated! I've just processed the first Appeal based on the information based in the forum.. and as I'm a regular traveler to Manchester I'll look at the signage on Deansgate station!

Fingers crossed!
And I'll let the forum know of the outcome of Appeal 1

 

[scrapy]

The PF also appears to have been indirectly issued right the way through to Buckshaw Parkway, rather than the next station stop. This would be another grounds for appeal.

Yes was about to say the same. This should be reason enough for the penalty to be overturned.

 

[MrJeeves]

The PF also appears to have been indirectly issued right the way through to Buckshaw Parkway, rather than the next station stop. This would be another grounds for appeal.

Yes was about to say the same. This should be reason enough for the penalty to be overturned.

Out of curiosity, I thought the regulations permitted this with Section 5(5A):

(5A) In respect of England, the penalty fare charged under paragraph (1) to a person travelling by or present on a train authorises a person to travel to—
(a) a station in England at which the train is due to make a scheduled call that they may specify, if the collector considers that this is reasonable in all the circumstances

 

[island]

The PF also appears to have been indirectly issued right the way through to Buckshaw Parkway, rather than the next station stop. This would be another grounds for appeal.

No, a penalty fare issued on a train can be issued to any station that that train has yet to call at.

I agree that an appeal of this Penalty Fare should however succeed on the grounds that the notice does not contain an explanation of why the passenger was charged a Penalty Fare.

 

[John R]

deleted.

 

[furlong]

Note the words "that they may specify". "They" surely refers to "a person" - not "the collector"? (If it referred to the collector, the first "they" would have been "the collector", and "the collector" would have been "they", and the reasonableness test would have been phrased differently as it wouldn't involve "considering" something already "specified" by that same person - they would consider first, then specify.)

The question is whether the OP asked for that particular station to be used (valid PF) or whether it was imposed on them without any choice (invalid PF).

 

[MrJeeves]

The question is whether the OP asked for that particular station to be used (valid PF) or whether it was imposed on them without any choice (invalid PF).

I would imagine the collector would simply ask "Where are you headed to?" and issue it to there, if they consider it suitable.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The question is whether the OP asked for that particular station to be used (valid PF) or whether it was imposed on them without any choice (invalid PF).

Wasn't the OP travelling to Leyland, and had a valid ticket for the section from Buckshaw Parkway to Leyland, but not between Deansgate and Buckshaw Parkway?

 

[MrJeeves]

Wasn't the OP travelling to Leyland, and had a valid ticket for the section from Buckshaw Parkway to Leyland, but not between Deansgate and Buckshaw Parkway?

I believe so.

it was confirmed the Deansgate to Buckshaw was for the specific 16:08 train and the Buckshaw to Leyland was an anytime ticket

I presume OP was checked between Deansgate and Buckshaw, hence the need for the PF only to cover up to Buckshaw where the valid ticket can take over for the rest of the journey.

 

[John Palmer]

"Unable to show a valid ticket for your entire journey" may well suffice to satisfy the 2018 Penalty Fares Regulations' requirement that the recipient has to be provided with “an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare” in writing. It might be interesting to see how Penalty Services respond to an appeal on the basis that the OP held tickets for a journey from Deansgate to Leyland but was not provided with a written explanation of why either/both of those tickets was not regarded as being valid.

I think it is vital to establish whether there was any exchange between the OP and the official as to the destination station to which the penalty fare was to authorise travel. If there wasn't then the default provision in Regulation 5(5A) of the 2018 Regulations applied, and a PF issued at Lostock should have authorised travel only as far as Horwich Parkway (assuming that was the next scheduled call for the train in question). So the question to be answered is whether @AndroidAsh specified Buckshaw Parkway as the destination to which the penalty fare was to authorise travel (or agreed to a suggestion from the official to that effect). If not, and that destination was imposed without choice then, as @furlong says, the PF was invalid. Any appeal on this ground should spell out that the PF was not “charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations” (i.e. the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018) - see Regulation 16(2) of those Regulations.

The fact that the OP already held a valid ticket for the Buckshaw Parkway-Leyland leg of the journey makes no difference to Regulation 5(5A)'s requirement that if the PF is to authorise travel beyond the train's next scheduled call, this must be preceded by the traveller 'specifying' a different destination station at which the train is due to call and the 'collector' deciding that it is reasonable to issue a PF to that destination. If that two-stage process hasn't been followed then the PF has not been issued in accordance with the Regulations' requirements.