Train movements in through stations with bi directional platforms

[Junior]

Are there any instances in the UK where trains terminate their journey on a bi directional through platform before commencing their next trip in the opposite direction ( ie back towards where they came from?)

If so, are their instances in the timetable that have two trains approaching same platform from opposite directions either to operate return services in opposite directions or to amalgamate into one service for onward travel in either direction?

Other than slowly - how do the signalling rules allow two trains to approach each other - is it a standard procedure under permissive working?

The next question is whether ETCS L2 or L3 permits such a scenario under full supervision mode, or whether it would need to be over-ridden into on-sight or staff responsible modes.

I hope that makes sense!

 

[Watershed]

Are there any instances in the UK where trains terminate their journey on a bi directional through platform before commencing their next trip in the opposite direction ( ie back towards where they came from?)

There must be hundreds of of examples. Look at the likes of Edinburgh, Motherwell, Newcastle, York, Birmingham New St, Cardiff Central, Bristol Temple Meads, Horsham, Epsom, Ashford International etc.

If so, are their instances in the timetable that have two trains approaching same platform from opposite directions either to operate return services in opposite directions or to amalgamate into one service for onward travel in either direction?

There are examples of this at several of the above stations. It's possibly a little bit less common than before, seeing as trains are now often longer fixed-formation units. But it still happens all over the place.

Other than slowly - how do the signalling rules allow two trains to approach each other - is it a standard procedure under permissive working?

It will be a signalled via a "calling-on" route, which can only be set once the first train is deemed to have stopped (generally calculated by having occupied the platform track circuit berth for long enough) and any overlap has timed out. The signal protecting the station will remain at danger as the second train approaches, forcing the driver to slow the train considerably (often nearly to a stop).

Then, once the second train is deemed to have slowed down sufficiently (again, generally calculated by occupancy of an approaching track circuit berth), the position light signal ("cat's eyes") will illuminate, allowing the second train's river to proceed under caution, being prepared to stop short of the train in the platform or any other obstacle.

The next question is whether ETCS L2 or L3 permits such a scenario under full supervision mode, or whether it would need to be over-ridden into on-sight or staff responsible modes.

I hope that makes sense!

I can't comment on how it works under ETCS. Does anyone know how splitting and joining operations are handled at Machynlleth, which was the first part of the network to transition to ETCS?

 

[ExRes]

Are there any instances in the UK where trains terminate their journey on a bi directional through platform before commencing their next trip in the opposite direction ( ie back towards where they came from?)

I can't imagine it's changed since my time, we used to terminate at both Nottingham and Sheffield on through platforms before returning to St Pancras

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Happens in loads of places. In particular Leeds, which has a large number of through platforms but far more services enter from and depart towards the south and west than in the York/Hull direction. Huddersfield has one bi-directional through platform (P4) which is treated as two bays (4a towards Leeds and 4b towards Manchester) for most of the day.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Platforms 2 + 3 at Southampton Central, perhaps?

Trains starting/terminating there and operating to/from, for example, Bournemouth in one direction, and Portsmouth in the other.

 

[Magdalia]

Are there any instances in the UK where trains terminate their journey on a bi directional through platform before commencing their next trip in the opposite direction ( ie back towards where they came from?)

Peterborough (P1) and Ely (P3) do this at both ends at the same platform.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Ellesmere Port where services to Liverpool and Helsby both leave from the non-obvious arrival platform and use trailing crossovers on departure

 

[swt_passenger]

Platforms 2 + 3 at Southampton Central, perhaps?

Trains starting/terminating there and operating to/from, for example, Bournemouth in one direction, and Portsmouth in the other.

I’ve also seen it happening there in both directions at the same platform, in the current timetable theres an example involving SN from and to the east in 3A and GWR from and to the west in 3B just after 0800. There used to be a few more GWR reversals over the course of a day, pre 2020 they often used platforms 2A and 2B, I suppose it makes sense from a planning perspective because the GWR services were always predictably short trains.

Another standard move on Sundays at Southampton is that the stopper from Portsmouth arrives into platform 3, but runs all th way through to the B end. During its layover time the SN Brighton service arrives and departs behind it, ie in the A end. The stopper’s return trip to Portsmouth then starts to the east but unusually from the west end of the station.

 

[TurboMan]

The next question is whether ETCS L2 or L3 permits such a scenario under full supervision mode, or whether it would need to be over-ridden into on-sight or staff responsible modes.

Permissive moves are carried out in OS, but rather than an override, the RBC sends the train an OS MA whch the driver has to acknowledge (flashing yellow icon). This happens at the point at which the signal displays a position light if on overlay infrastructure.

As for your main question, there are/were workings at Reading where an empty 387 arriving from the west from Reading TCD would attach to another 387 arriving in passenger service from the east from Paddington. Not sure if that's still in the timetable. But they wouldn't arrive simultaneously certainly.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Rock Ferry, Bidston, Chester, Nottingham and Sheffield (as previously said), Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Manchester Piccadilly (13 & 14) they do try to keep them unidirectional, but I've left from the 'wrong' platform, Manchester Oxford Road, Lancaster, Preston, Shrewsbury, Liverpool Central.

 

[zwk500]

Permissive moves are carried out in OS, but rather than an override, the RBC sends the train an OS MA whch the driver has to acknowledge (flashing yellow icon). This happens at the point at which the signal displays a position light if on overlay infrastructure.

As for your main question, there are/were workings at Reading where an empty 387 arriving from the west from Reading TCD would attach to another 387 arriving in passenger service from the east from Paddington. Not sure if that's still in the timetable. But they wouldn't arrive simultaneously certainly.

Yes, would normally need 3 minutes between arrivals. One point though - will signalling systems allow you to set the road for simultaneous departures or is that usually prevented in the interlocking?

 

[bigfoote]

Not in regular timetabled use (to my best knowledge), but during disruption or engineering, Havant does see this sort of use since the avoiding road was removed and both platforms made bi-di.

 

[TSG]

Permissive moves are carried out in OS, but rather than an override, the RBC sends the train an OS MA whch the driver has to acknowledge (flashing yellow icon). This happens at the point at which the signal displays a position light if on overlay infrastructure.

Where these moves are done regularly you will likely have separate train detection sections for each end of the platform already. Given that braking distance and sighting are less of an issue for a block marker mid platform than a signal, these wouldn't typically be permissive moves under ETCS would they?

Yes, would normally need 3 minutes between arrivals. One point though - will signalling systems allow you to set the road for simultaneous departures or is that usually prevented in the interlocking?

What you definitely cannot do is signal a train out of one end of the platform whilst allowing a permissive move in from the other end (Huddersfield control). I'm not sure there is an absolute ban on simultaneous moves out of opposite ends, but the risk of confusion to platform staff and train crew would need to be considered tolerable.

 

[WizCastro197]

Redhill (sometimes), Reigate, Leicester (x2), Three Bridges, Gatwick Airport, East Croydon.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm not sure there is an absolute ban on simultaneous moves out of opposite ends, but the risk of confusion to platform staff and train crew would need to be considered tolerable.

Had those at My TOC. It wasn't an issue. A unit would come in, split, and then run in service one direction and then into the sidings in the other.

It will be a signalled via a "calling-on" route, which can only be set once the first train is deemed to have stopped (generally calculated by having occupied the platform track circuit berth for long enough) and any overlap has timed out

We used to have a movement that would be signalled onto a line where there was a unit pulling out and you followed them up to the exit signal. 40mph permissive worked road :/

Most certainly going to be 'exceptions' to the rule.

 

[zwk500]

Most certainly going to be 'exceptions' to the rule.

It wouldn't be the British Railway if there weren't.

 

[ComUtoR]

It wouldn't be the British Railway if there weren't.

On a MSX diagram, restricted to a full moon on each third Friday, between 0903-1438, with points clipped and a shunter provided (where required) and class xx5 only.

 

[TSG]

We used to have a movement that would be signalled onto a line where there was a unit pulling out and you followed them up to the exit signal. 40mph permissive worked road :/

Most certainly going to be 'exceptions' to the rule.

London Bridge? Sorry yes, I should have made clear that I was discussing modern practice since the Stafford collision.

 

[ComUtoR]

London Bridge is 20mph.

I don't know of any movements that go in opposite directions.

When was the Stratford collision ?

 

[TSG]

London Bridge is 20mph.

I don't know of any movements that go in opposite directions.

When was the Stratford collision ?

Stafford was 1990. I knew LB used to have the call-on when train ahead departing arrangement. You've got me wondering where else they would have needed that now?

 

[TurboMan]

Where these moves are done regularly you will likely have separate train detection sections for each end of the platform already. Given that braking distance and sighting are less of an issue for a block marker mid platform than a signal, these wouldn't typically be permissive moves under ETCS would they?

If there is a mid-platform block marker (virtual or otherwise) then the platform line is two sections, same as with a mid-platform signal. If one train is required to proceed beyond that block marker to attach, then there will be two trains in the same section which is, by definition, permissive working - no different to AB or TCB - so the movement could only be carried out in OS. Therefore the movement up to the mid-platform block marker would be in FS, but beyond the block marker would be in OS.

 

[Kite159]

Would Gloucester count? (Ie during engineering works on the line towards Cheltenham so the trains from Wales turn back on a through line rather than using the bay)

 

[D6130]

Evening shuttles from Bradford Forster Square turn round in platform 5 at Shipley....but it is not permissively-signalled, so only one train can occupy the platform at a time. (It's only four cars long anyway).

 

[CR165022]

Chiltern wise, there's the likes of Aylesbury, banbury, snow hill, west Ruislip and occasionally Princes Risborough and high Wycombe

 

[alistairlees]

Are there any instances in the UK where trains terminate their journey on a bi directional through platform before commencing their next trip in the opposite direction ( ie back towards where they came from?)

If so, are their instances in the timetable that have two trains approaching same platform from opposite directions either to operate return services in opposite directions or to amalgamate into one service for onward travel in either direction?

Tonbridge platform 1. Services from Redhill terminate at the country end, and from Strood at the main entrance end. Only happens on weekdays now though.

 

[plugwash]

IIRC there is an early morning TFW train that is scheduled to leave from platform 13 at picadilly, but may arrive by serveral routes some of which involve reversing in platform 13 and some of which don't.

That said, the last time I looked at what it actually did on a given day it departed from a platform in the main shed.

 

[L401CJF]

IIRC there is an early morning TFW train that is scheduled to leave from platform 13 at picadilly, but may arrive by serveral routes some of which involve reversing in platform 13 and some of which don't.

That said, the last time I looked at what it actually did on a given day it departed from a platform in the main shed.

The last one in the evening which used to arrive from Chester/Shrewsbury/Birmingham on P13 used to continue Express to Chester via Stockport/Northwich. Since the Dec timetable change its now booked to change ends on P13 and return express to Chester via Warrington.

 

[306024]

Ipswich hasn’t had a mention yet. Platform 4 and occasionally platform 3 has trains from opposite directions share the platform. More difficult now the GA trains are longer, but still happens. Services from both directions also reverse in platform 2 but platform sharing is much more unusual there.

 

[plugwash]

I think all the through platforms at Cambridge are Bi-Di and reversals of trains from the south are often done in through platforms because the south facing bays are too small.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The overwhelming majority of moves at Skipton are 'platform reversals' as you might term it.