Train Reversals - how long do they take?

[HSTEd]

I was wondering how long it takes for a train to be reversed in a station platform, is it merely a function of how long it takes the driver to walk the length of the train or are there other more important factors? (Brake checks or whatever if those are required to be undertaken after switching ends).

I assume the doors can be left open while the driver switches ends allowing it to overlap with ordinary station dwell times.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE services between Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Cleethorpes and Manchester Airport all reverse at Manchester Piccadilly. There seems to be a minimum of 4 minutes between departure and arrival times at Piccadilly on those services, compared to 2 minutes on the TPE services that use platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly, so that may give a clue.

 

[43067]

Probably not the same but! last sunday due to points problem ivo northallerton the 0959 from eag GC service i was on had to reverse into thisk which took about 5 mins to complete. and fair play to the driver if i remember we were 25 down into york but only 15 down into kgx.

 

[MK Tom]

Trains from Maidenhead to Marlow reverse at Bourne End. The driver gets out, walks to the other end, gets in and off we go. I've known it take less than two minutes.

 

[Class377/5]

I was wondering how long it takes for a train to be reversed in a station platform, is it merely a function of how long it takes the driver to walk the length of the train or are there other more important factors? (Brake checks or whatever if those are required to be undertaken after switching ends).

I assume the doors can be left open while the driver switches ends allowing it to overlap with ordinary station dwell times.

It depends on a few factors. For example on Thameslink a 319 reversing in platform is not much longer than driver walking through the train. However a 377 is long as driver needs to set the train up and ensure it knows what it's doing (so things like onboard CIS is correct).

 

[rmt-driver]

Sometimes there is a minimum turnaround times agreed with unions. This differs as per each TOC

 

[starrymarkb]

SBB Brünig used to turn a train in about 3 mins at Meiringen - bear in mind this is loco hauled stock, though with semi automatic couplers... and wasn't the terminus

 

[Welshman]

Northern schedules 3 minutes to turn 2 or 3 Car trains at Bradford Interchange, [some are strenghened to 4 cars in the peak]. But one service, the 0551 Leeds-Blackpool, is only allowed 1 minute [in the public timetable anyway].

 

[The Planner]

Varies from TOC to traction to location. The TPRs have it all listed.

 

[Jedipickles]

I've heard from a mate that a delayed 395 arrived at Dover Priory and it left in just over a minute - the driver got out and another driver who was already in the back cab took over - it was the quickest and most efficient Southeastern had ever been apparently!

Then again, i dont know if this is true as i wasn't there!

 

[150222]

Northern schedules 3 minutes to turn 2 or 3 Car trains at Bradford Interchange, [some are strenghened to 4 cars in the peak]. But one service, the 0551 Leeds-Blackpool, is only allowed 1 minute [in the public timetable anyway].

I think that one has a fair bit of padding. But it doesn't take long to switch ends at Bradford. Could be done in 1 minute.

 

[SprinterMan]

ATW timetable some Conwy Valley line treains to turn around at Blaneau Ffestiniog in 1 minute, but I assume there is alot of slack on the timetable. The 2023 Blaneau Ffestiniog is scheduled to arrive into Llandudno at 2146, before departing on the 2145 to Crewe, so Arriva apparently can turn this train around in -1min. In practise it arrives at Llandudno at about 2142 :P

 

[Rich_D3167]

Northern Rail have 3 minute reversals at Castleford on the Leeds to Knottingley services.

 

[Matt Taylor]

we turned an 8 car 455 in two minutes at Shepperton this morning, ten late arriving and four late departing.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm a little alarmed at some of the times quoted in this thread. Changing ends really shouldn't be rushed because that's how things get missed, like forgetting to change the lights over.

I've turned around late running trains at Hertford East in a matter of minutes, but I will still make sure that I follow my cab routines and will make sure that the train is ready before I release the brake.

Union agreed times are usually for tasks like mobilising and immobilising a train shown on the driver's diagram. Oddly, changing ends requires the traincrew to follow the same procedures but there are no agreed times (at least not where I work).

O L Leigh

 

[colchesterken]

Seems to work OK at Colchester Town, the driver changes ends tests AWS brakes and off to Walton or big Colchester

 

[Minilad]

I'm a little alarmed at some of the times quoted in this thread. Changing ends really shouldn't be rushed because that's how things get missed, like forgetting to change the lights over.

I've turned around late running trains at Hertford East in a matter of minutes, but I will still make sure that I follow my cab routines and will make sure that the train is ready before I release the brake.

Union agreed times are usually for tasks like mobilising and immobilising a train shown on the driver's diagram. Oddly, changing ends requires the traincrew to follow the same procedures but there are no agreed times (at least not where I work).

O L Leigh

3 mins at XC, 5 for a double set. Minimum

 

[O L Leigh]

Seems to work OK at Colchester Town, the driver changes ends tests AWS brakes and off to Walton or big Colchester

Sets up radio...? Checks lights...? Inputs PIS service code...?

Oh dear.

O L Leigh

 

[RPM]

ATP slows it up a bit. It goes through a self-test routine as soon as you open up the desk and then you've got to do the data input. That's why we swap keys rather than shut the desk down when changing drivers. I'd say you need at least 5 minutes to change ends and set off in a 3 car 165/168 unit.

 

[jopsuk]

surely things are a little different for a reversal in service (such as Colchester Town) compared to a turn-around at the end of a service?

 

[driver9000]

surely things are a little different for a reversal in service (such as Colchester Town) compared to a turn-around at the end of a service?

Not really. You are still shutting a cab down, walking to the other end and setting the leading end up just as you would at a terminus.

The shortest booked layover we have is 4 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATP slows it up a bit. It goes through a self-test routine as soon as you open up the desk and then you've got to do the data input. That's why we swap keys rather than shut the desk down when changing drivers. I'd say you need at least 5 minutes to change ends and set off in a 3 car 165/168 unit.

Are you able to use the short set up sequence when changing ends in service or do they require you to go through the long set up (BB,SB,OB etc)? I know the short set up still takes a bit of time but at least it skips a large part of the sequence. When I signed 180s we only had to use the long sequence when preparing the train and swapped keys on mid route changes. I'm just being nosey really

 

[dk1]

If it's on my last bit i can do it in seconds

 

[David Goddard]

surely things are a little different for a reversal in service (such as Colchester Town) compared to a turn-around at the end of a service?

This is very true, as a reversal in service would not require resetting of PIS or destination blinds (remember them), nor a quick sweep to see if anyone is left on board.

Reversals in service would in many cases depend on the path available, and a particularly long wait could be down to pathing, or to provide recovery time to ensure that the next leg of the journey is punctual.

I have gone through the NRT and identified services that incorporate a reversal en route. Listed is the service, location of reversal and typical (rough average across the day) reversal time in minutes. The shortest is two minutes, while the longest are in excess of ten.

There are probably more, so no spotting of those I have not listed, but it gives a flavour

 

[RPM]

Are you able to use the short set up sequence when changing ends in service or do they require you to go through the long set up (BB,SB,OB etc)? I know the short set up still takes a bit of time but at least it skips a large part of the sequence. When I signed 180s we only had to use the long sequence when preparing the train and swapped keys on mid route changes. I'm just being nosey really

It is a different ATP system to that used on FGW and only has one (long!) set up sequence. It goes through 25 tests, then you can do the data input. Only takes about a minute to go through but it seems like ages when you are trying to be quick.

 

[Harlesden]

How about the longest reversal in service?
EMT service from Grimsby Town arrives Newark Northgate at 19:53 and sits there in the platform until its return journey at 20:32

 

[driver9000]

It is a different ATP system to that used on FGW and only has one (long!) set up sequence. It goes through 24 tests, then you can do the data input. Only takes about a minute to go through but it seems like ages when you are trying to be quick.

I wasn't sure if you were on GW or Chiltern ATP. I can empathise with you on the set up taking an age when you're running late, it feels even longer when you miss the button when engerising the desk and end up having to go through the whole sequence

 

[ACE1888]

Bere Alston 'reversal' takes around 3 minutes, driver to change end, guard to change the points (Plymouth-Gunnislake branch)

 

[Tomnick]

Bere Alston reversals are booked a minimum of 3 minutes in the WTT, it appears. Castleford, Georgemas and Coombe Jn (whether in the platform or at the ground frame) appear to be the same.

How about the longest reversal in service?
EMT service from Grimsby Town arrives Newark Northgate at 19:53 and sits there in the platform until its return journey at 20:32

That's not a reversal mid-service! There's plenty of trains that sit in platforms for hours between workings in some places.

 

[Roylang]

St.Erth - St.Ives has several turnarounds at 1 min in the public timetable. For example, 11:48 SER-SIV arr 12:02 next working 12:03 SIV - SER Not sure what is shown in the working timetable.

Roy

 

[The Planner]

The same as far as i know.

(It is more, serves me right for looking at the public time column....)