Trainline charging two advance amendments for one change

[125Spotter]

A few weeks ago, I was booked from Exeter St Davids [EXD] to London Liverpool Street return, ticketed as 2 x Advance Single changing at Paddington [PAD] with a London zone 1 interchange on each ticket. Original departure 0800 from EXD with return on the 2003 from PAD. Due to the cross-London interchange, tickets were provided as ToD rather than e-tickets. I had already collected them.

Morning of travel, something had snarled up the roads locally, I wasn't in any particular rush and was concerned I wouldn't make it to the station in time. As it happens, I got there with a few minutes to spare, but it was no bother to wait – later trains were quieter anyway. I'd amended the tickets en route via Trainline app (work's preferred booking site) to the outbound 0915, paid up the extra fare, but made no changes to the inbound journey.

To my surprise, Trainline issued a new booking code with new tickets for both journeys. I collected new tickets and posted the old ones back for a refund. In my haste, I must have neglected to notice that Trainline was now levying a higher charge for the inbound (£70.45 vs. £66.25).

I'm now in dispute with Trainline over their retaining 2 x £10 admin charges for allegedly making amendments to both journeys on the single booking. Their support say their app cannot make partial changes, hence a charge levied for amending both journeys. Moreover, the app is confused in that it shows only one admin charge being deducted, although the overall balance reflects deduction of two (see screenshot). I don't appear to have a receipted entry for the second admin charge, despite it having been deducted.

My question – before I push back further on this, is it expected under the terms and do I have any recourse? As much as I don't want to pay more than I need to, it's not so much the admin cost, but whether I am liable for Trainline's inadequate tech stack. I accept that they issued new tickets for the inbound, but I never asked them to – the original was perfectly valid and I wouldn't have requested an "amendment" if it had been made clear I was to be charged for two amendments.

This seems like a technology limitation rather than a burden the passenger should bear. Indeed, is there a reason they could not simply have given me a new collection code for a new outbound, refunded just the original outbound, and made no changes to the inbound ticket for use later in the day?

In consulting the Advance ticket T&Cs, I see nothing about being charged multiple admin fees where changes are made to a single Advance ticket on a multi-journey booking. Sections 7 and 8 refer to making changes to a "journey" (I assume in this case a journey == just one of the legs) but nothing about multiple changes to a booking here. Similar with Trainline's terms.

This feels like a technical error rather than a legitimate charge. The matter surely pivots on what counts as a "change", and I would not reasonably consider that the reissuance of a ticket of the same class, for departure from the same origin to the same destination, taking the same routeing with mandatory reservations on the same trains constitutes a "change" in journey, irrespective of whether it appears as a new booking code or not. A different price for this ticket may be material though.

Any advice gratefully appreciated before I respond and potentially look like a total muppet. I may have lost this one, but appreciate any advice for how I could have avoided this in future (and I'll re-think whether to use other vendors for future work travel).

 

[miklcct]

This is clearly a software bug. You should contact the customer service to refund the extra £10, otherwise, file a dispute through your payment card provider.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The £10 charge is per ticket if you had two tickets it’s £20

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £10 charge is per ticket if you had two tickets it’s £20

It seems that the OP had two tickets but amended only one of the two, but as they were purchased as a split Trainline charged two fees (a good reason to use Trainsplit instead, as theirs is £10 per leg regardless of how many tickets), because their systems are too rubbish to amend only one ticket within a booking so they refunded both and reissued a second set.

It's probably within their T&C, but it's very poor, particularly given the incorrect receipt. If they had any level of customer-service oriented view they'd refund in this case out of goodwill.

Actually I misunderstood. The OP didn't have a split, but a regular return journey made of two Advance fares. It seems Trainline refunded both and reissued both (the OP was lucky that didn't hit them with higher Advance fares) rather than only amending an outward leg as the OP instructed them to do. Is that even allowed in their accreditation? I think that actually is worth challenging as bluntly it's just awful - every other site I've ever used has allowed the amendment of the outward without amending the return (or vice versa). Even Ryanair wouldn't be quite as brazen as to try something like this.

This is clearly a software bug. You should contact the customer service to refund the extra £10, otherwise, file a dispute through your payment card provider.

I am inclined towards this - push Trainline to refund it, if not dispute the transaction, though disputing an incorrect refund (if they've done it that way) may be difficult.

 

[pelli]

To my surprise, Trainline issued a new booking code with new tickets for both journeys. I collected new tickets and posted the old ones back for a refund. In my haste, I must have neglected to notice that Trainline was now levying a higher charge for the inbound (£70.45 vs. £66.25).

Sounds like the unnecessary cancellation and reissuance of the unchanged return leg might have left the OP out of pocket by not just a £10 admin fee but also a £4.20 price difference. (BRFares shows £70.45 and £66.25 as two price tiers for a Railcard-discounted First Class Advance Single from "Zone U1* Londn" to Exeter St Davids.)

 

[Hadders]

The £10 charge is per ticket if you had two tickets it’s £20

But the OP only changed one ticket, which was for the outward journey. There were no changes to the return journey but Trainline appear to have cancalled the ticket relating to the return journey, sold a new ticket which cost £4.20 more and then added a £10 amendment fee.

This doesn't seem at all right to me. If the OP had booked the tickets as two separate transactions then this wouldn't have happened. Is this really what Trainline expect their customers to do?

 

[Haywain]

But the OP only changed one ticket, which was for the outward journey. There were no changes to the return journey but Trainline appear to have cancalled the ticket relating to the return journey, sold a new ticket which cost £4.20 more and then added a £10 amendment fee.

I also read it as two tickets for the journey that was changed. The initial post wasn’t as clear as it might have been.

 

[alistairlees]

The OP says that they had ToD tickets (presumably uncollected) at the time of wanting to change the itinerary. And therein lies the issue.

Both tickets will have been under a single CTR reference (the alphanumeric code used to collect ToD tickets). It isn't possible (so far as I know) to partially refund a CTR, leaving it with (in this case) one Advance ticket - the whole CTR has to be cancelled.

In doing so I expect that both tickets had to be cancelled / refunded, and then both rebooked - as a result of which one turned out to be more expensive. And, because both were refunded / changed, two fees were charged.

A wholly unsatisfactory situation, of course, for both the customer and the retailer.

If I have got that cause here right, then that's another reason to get rid of ToD.

 

[Haywain]

It isn't possible (so far as I know) to partially refund a CTR,

I'm pretty sure that is correct.

 

[pelli]

The OP says that they had ToD tickets (presumably uncollected) at the time of wanting to change the itinerary. And therein lies the issue.

Both tickets will have been under a single CTR reference (the alphanumeric code used to collect ToD tickets). It isn't possible (so far as I know) to partially refund a CTR, leaving it with (in this case) one Advance ticket - the whole CTR has to be cancelled.

Sounds like a fair technical reason, if somewhat unsatisfactory, that you can't cancel part of a single "collection reference" (assuming that the CTR reference and the ticket itself are inextricably linked so that you can't cancel the CTR reference without cancelling the ticket). However, in this case the tickets had already been collected:

A few weeks ago, I was booked from Exeter St Davids [EXD] to London Liverpool Street return, ticketed as 2 x Advance Single changing at Paddington [PAD] with a London zone 1 interchange on each ticket. Original departure 0800 from EXD with return on the 2003 from PAD. Due to the cross-London interchange, tickets were provided as ToD rather than e-tickets. I had already collected them.

Presumably once you have to manually handle getting a ticket posted back, there would be enough flexibility to just do this with one ticket? (And if so, then in principle even if the tickets haven't been collected, the procedure could be to ask the passenger to collect all original tickets, plus the new ones on a separate reference, and then post back the unused ones to get them refunded.)

Perhaps Trainline decided to just lazily treat all ToD orders as un-part-changeable in their systems. (Does anyone know if they allow changing just one leg of an E-ticket order?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both tickets will have been under a single CTR reference (the alphanumeric code used to collect ToD tickets). It isn't possible (so far as I know) to partially refund a CTR, leaving it with (in this case) one Advance ticket - the whole CTR has to be cancelled.

In doing so I expect that both tickets had to be cancelled / refunded, and then both rebooked - as a result of which one turned out to be more expensive. And, because both were refunded / changed, two fees were charged.

There is of course no reason why Trainline had to charge the second admin fee. Admin fees are discretionary - indeed, Trainline doesn't charge the full £10 on lower value tickets already. The higher value Advance is more awkward, but if they're doing this they're going to be upping some people from a cheap Advance to a hefty Anytime, and if they're doing that they want a massive kick.

And don't most retailers issue Advance changes as an excess?

Presumably once you have to manually handle getting a ticket posted back, there would be enough flexibility to just do this with one ticket? (And if so, then in principle even if the tickets haven't been collected, the procedure could be to ask the passenger to collect all original tickets, plus the new ones on a separate reference, and then post back the unused ones to get them refunded.)

Yes, it's just bone-idleness on the part of Trainline, and excruciatingly bad customer service - the exact thing that the railway as a whole loves to do and which gets it the deserved terrible reputation it has.

The answer here, if a CTR can't be partly cancelled, is to have them collect the unused ticket and post it back. Though it'd be a reasonable workaround to cancel the whole thing and reissue with one admin fee if and only if the same Advance tier was still available.

There really is no excuse for this sort of Kundenverarschung*.

* It means what it sounds like, and is often levelled at Deutsche Bahn for doing similar sorts of anti-customer things to make their life a bit easier.

 

[Haywain]

And don't most retailers issue Advance changes as an excess?

No, because excess fares cannot be issued to ToD/eTicket etc (at least, in the latter case, not in a 'clean' way). That's why most non-station retailers re-issue instead.

The answer here, if a CTR can't be partly cancelled, is to have them collect the unused ticket and post it back.

That's what the OP was required to do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, because excess fares cannot be issued to ToD/eTicket etc (at least, in the latter case, not in a 'clean' way). That's why most non-station retailers re-issue instead.

Ah. To be fair that does give customers a slight advantage in that it allows them to change TOC and to "excess away" a TOC restriction, things which are not normally permitted.

That's what the OP was required to do.

Indeed, so there was no excuse for charging them the Advance increase nor the second admin fee. They could, and should, have issued a new CTR for the changed ticket only and asked them to post back only the changed one from the original set.

It's just rubbish doing what they did.

 

[alistairlees]

There is of course no reason why Trainline had to charge the second admin fee. Admin fees are discretionary - indeed, Trainline doesn't charge the full £10 on lower value tickets already. The higher value Advance is more awkward, but if they're doing this they're going to be upping some people from a cheap Advance to a hefty Anytime, and if they're doing that they want a massive kick.

And don't most retailers issue Advance changes as an excess?



Yes, it's just bone-idleness on the part of Trainline, and excruciatingly bad customer service - the exact thing that the railway as a whole loves to do and which gets it the deserved terrible reputation it has.

The answer here, if a CTR can't be partly cancelled, is to have them collect the unused ticket and post it back. Though it'd be a reasonable workaround to cancel the whole thing and reissue with one admin fee if and only if the same Advance tier was still available.

There really is no excuse for this sort of Kundenverarschung*.

* It means what it sounds like, and is often levelled at Deutsche Bahn for doing similar sorts of anti-customer things to make their life a bit easier.

I was just postulating as to a possible cause, without trying to judge on whether others were "bone idle". Often retailers have to implement very sub optimal things because of the data or other systems. They might even prefer not to do sub optimal things!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was just postulating as to a possible cause, without trying to judge on whether others were "bone idle". Often retailers have to implement very sub optimal things because of the data or other systems. They might even prefer not to do sub optimal things!

It doesn't matter how hard it is not to overcharge customers, you simply must not do it.

The rules are clear - £10 admin fee for changing the ticket you want to change. It's to Trainline to find a way to make that work. If they can't be bothered or find it uneconomic, the option is available to them to close their business or refocus it away from UK train ticket sale.

 

[125Spotter]

Thanks to everyone for their input here. It seems this is boneheadedness on Trainline's part; nothing more than that.

To clarify the earlier remarks, yes I had already collected the tickets the day prior to travel, prior to the amendment being made. With trainsplit.com, I would have expected to make the amendment and just post back/refund one of the advances; done that plenty of times before.

Yes, I was also charged the uplift to the latest advance ticket available at the time. I didn't notice this had happened until I came to write this thread up initially.

As others have said, part cancelling the CTR may not be possible, but that doesn't preclude Trainline from advising me to collect and just return the outbound (amended) ticket. I assume not doing so is either out of zero desire to build the tech or due to the inevitable confusion this will no doubt cause to their customers.

I'm going to take this back up with Trainline now and will advise if I get anywhere. I'll also be using Trainsplit.com for most of my future work travel – work hasn't objected to cheap splits that I've expensed via that site before, and their tools and approach seems more friendly to a railway "power user", so-to-speak.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think it's a ToD thing rather than a Trainline thing. That said, Trainline don't have to charge it! I suspect they've gone for the easiest option and it probably comes up so rarely that's it's not been noticed before.
I think a quick call to their customer service team will resolve it. Buy if it doesn't, then leaving a 1* review usually gets the desired result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's quite possible that the double admin fee is a software bug given that your receipt mentions only one admin fee; they may well refund it if you contact them.

The upped Advance tier, though, is a bigger problem. For people doing a journey on Avanti West Coast both ways in the peak it could result in a swingeing uplift. That's a faulty process.

 

[Hadders]

There is nothing stopping Trainline giving the OP a refund of £10 and the difference in fares as a separate refund, not that it fixes the root cause but it is the right thing to do from a service point of view. It'll end up costing them far more in time and effort dealing with the OP.

Very poor from Trainline.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There is nothing stopping Trainline giving the OP a refund of £10 and the difference in fares as a separate refund, not that it fixes the root cause but it is the right thing to do from a service point of view. It'll end up costing them far more in time and effort dealing with the OP.

Very poor from Trainline.

I refuse to believe any TOC would refund the difference in advance fares when a customer wanted to change it!
Yes, they should refund the second £10 which I suspect they will when a human looks at it properly.
But refunding a change the customer requested? I can't see that happening

 

[Hadders]

I refuse to believe any TOC would refund the difference in advance fares when a customer wanted to change it!
Yes, they should refund the second £10 which I suspect they will when a human looks at it properly.
But refunding a change the customer requested? I can't see that happening

The customer didn't want to change the ticket for the return journey. There was no change to the return journey at all. Trainline's systems decided it needed to be refunded and resold.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The customer didn't want to change the ticket for the return journey. There was no change to the return journey at all. Trainline's systems decided it needed to be refunded and resold.

For exactly the same price. Only the outward journey changed price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For exactly the same price. Only the outward journey changed price.

That isn't what the OP is saying.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'd amended the tickets en route via Trainline app (work's preferred booking site) to the outbound 0915, paid up the extra fare, but made no changes to the inbound journey.

To my surprise, Trainline issued a new booking code with new tickets for both journeys. I collected new tickets and posted the old ones back for a refund. In my haste, I must have neglected to notice that Trainline was now levying a higher charge for the inbound (£70.45 vs. £66.25).

I took this to mean they requested one journey to be changed. Both were changed. Only one changed price.

That isn't what the OP is saying.

 

[125Spotter]

Both were changed. Only one changed price.

I only "changed" the outbound (in terms of making a time of travel change) but their app decided that it was going to cancel and reissue the inbound. In so doing, both journeys changed price despite only the outbound needing to change.

My original booking:

• Outbound: 13 July at 08:00 from EXD. Advance Single 1st £103.60
• Inbound: 13 July at 20:03 from PAD. Advance Single 1st £66.25

for a total of £169.85.

After using the app to amend the outbound on the morning of the journey (it asked me to re-confirm the inbound journey, so I gave it the same date/time expecting to use the same ticket):

• Outbound: 13 July at 09:15 from EXD. Advance at £127.75 (i.e. £24.15 more for this trip, which I am not disputing)
• Inbound: 13 July at 20:03 from PAD. Advance now re-sold to me at £70.45 (i.e. £4.20 more) despite already holding an inbound ticket of this type, fare class, ToC, route, origin, destination, date, time from the first CTR.

for a total of £198.20.

Refund received subsequently from Trainline of £149.85 for the first booking, i.e. less 2 x £10 admin charges for "changing" both journeys.

Overall out of pocket £48.35 from this change, of which I believe only £24.15 + £10 admin fee = £34.15 is actually reasonable.

The customer didn't want to change the ticket for the return journey. There was no change to the return journey at all. Trainline's systems decided it needed to be refunded and resold.

This is correct.

I've disputed with Trainline that the inbound was actually a "change". They re-sold the same ticket to me for no difference other than the CTR and the price! As others have said, this could have become much worse if modestly priced Advance tickets were subsequently not available for the inbound and the customer had been forced to upgrade to an Anytime Single or similar.

I also didn't have much other recourse to make the change. I needed to do so promptly given the train was imminently due to depart, so waiting to excess the ticket at the station would have been risky. But the reason for me using Trainline's facilities to make the amend is neither here nor there – they made the facility available to amend the ticket and I'd expect that to have been handled competently.

 

[Deafdoggie]

That's very much a ToD issue. I wouldn't expect a fix, as the solution is to abolish ToD

 

[125Spotter]

I won't disagree with the sentiment about ToD, but they could just as easily have sold me a new Advance ticket for the outbound and had me collect that. I'd already collected the original tickets by the time I made the amendment, so I had in my possession the ticket for the return journey.

Trainsplit's approach is perhaps less friendly to novices but means these exceptions are much easier to deal with – book a new journey that's compliant with the Advance ticketing T&Cs regarding changes, then request that the earlier ticket is cancelled.

Anyway, let's see how we go. My main gripe is the double £10 excess admin charge for not actually making a change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's very much a ToD issue. I wouldn't expect a fix, as the solution is to abolish ToD

I can see why it's the case, but it could have been done by issuing a new CTR with the changed ticket only and asking for that one to be posted back. It's therefore a fault of Trainline's processes, and as such they should make a "goodwill" refund of the additional fare for the second ticket, and definitely must make a refund of the second £10 fee (I'd consider disputing the transaction if they won't - their site says £10 and thus this is a form of "bait and switch" and thus illegal).

 

[Deafdoggie]

Absolutely the second £10 should be refunded. They can't argue they had to change both tickets because it's one transaction. Then charge for each change because it's two transactions!

 

[125Spotter]

I thought you would all like to hear Trainline's most recent response:

Advance Single tickets are non refundable and non amendable by nature and changes are possible only if you rebook the journey as it is. If the original booking is Return journey, then the new booking has to be a Return journey . As retailers we do not fix ticket prices. Ticket prices are subject to availability and Advance Single ticket prices are cheaper compared to Flexible tickets, hence the price of Advance Single tickets will not remain same.

There are so many problems in here that it is hard to know where to begin...

I will now be making a complaint, which is laughable given the cost to Trainline in dealing with it. But, out of interest, where can I go if Trainline's intransigence gets the better of them? They are not listed as one of the Rail Ombudsman's participating service providers – is there another industry body I can appeal to?