Trams vs electric buses with dedicated bus lanes

[Factotum]

For city use what is the advantage of a tram over an electrically powered bus using a dedicated lane?

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Trams tend to have more 'kudos' than buses when attempting to get drivers to shift to public transport (especially in the UK). Trams also tend to have a much larger carrying capacity than buses..

 

[edwin_m]

A tram can be longer, up to 60m or so, so can carry more passengers. It also uses less energy per seat, due to lower rolling resistance of steel wheels. Thus trams tend to be preferred for routes where high passenger volumes justify the construction of the infrastructure.

 

[Busaholic]

By the time the tram infrastructure is in place and trams are actually running, the dedicated bus lane may have been and gone, along with its original buses. The bus lane is far easier for a politician or operator to discard, for whatever reason, whereas the tram is much less likely to suffer that fate, even if the route proves not quite to be the success predicted. Of course, on many occasions the tram route may be a hit from the beginning, particularly if fares are set at comparable levels to other local public transport. A tram route will also need to be considerably longer than the length of any bus lane, or even two or three such, and is unlikely in this country to be introduced somewhere other than a large conurbation the way things currently stand.

 

[py_megapixel]

Trams can also go onto dedicated alignments and behave like trains outside the city centre (see Manchester)

 

[Dr Day]

Reduced environmental impact of non-tail pipe emissions eg tyres

https://lightrailuk.co.uk/media/files/LR-UK-Transport-Select-Committee-March-2017-v26pdf

 

[Ken H]

But constructing a tramway is hideously expensive. And unless you have reserved track subject to the same delays buses suffer.
Low density housing killed the tramways post WW2. The cost of making a tramway round estates to pick up 1 or 2 people at each stop was just too much. In Leeds for example I think city -Lawnswood may work. But Headingley Lane would still have loads of buses going to Long Causeway, the estates round Cookridge and to Ilkley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A tram typically has a smoother ride.

Also:
The advantage of a bus is flexibility (you can divert around problems and change routes as needed)
The disadvantage of a bus is flexibility (you can't plan your life, place of residence etc around it as it is too easy to get rid)

 

[johncrossley]

Electric buses in Britain are similarly low spec to diesel buses so there is still a huge gulf in quality between British electric buses and trams. In other countries there is less of a difference.

What about the rubber tyred 'trams' in Paris, branded as T5 and T6? Enthusiasts can tell the difference between them and steel wheeled trams, but what about the general public?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electric buses in Britain are similarly low spec to diesel buses so there is still a huge gulf in quality between British electric buses and trams. In other countries there is less of a difference.

What about the rubber tyred 'trams' in Paris, branded as T5 and T6? Enthusiasts can tell the difference between them and steel wheeled trams, but what about the general public?

The fundamental issue with these is them being non-standard, and so costly when it comes to repair or replacement.

 

[Ken H]

Electric buses in Britain are similarly low spec to diesel buses so there is still a huge gulf in quality between British electric buses and trams. In other countries there is less of a difference.

What about the rubber tyred 'trams' in Paris, branded as T5 and T6? Enthusiasts can tell the difference between them and steel wheeled trams, but what about the general public?

how does a rubber tyred tram return the traction current?

 

[edwin_m]

The fundamental issue with these is them being non-standard, and so costly when it comes to repair or replacement.

They're also a propriertary technology so you're tied into one supplier.

I found the interiors very cramped, probably due to the need to take space for large rubber wheels.

 

[birchesgreen]

A dedicated bus lane can be very easily taken away, tram lines are a bit harder to remove.

 

[Ken H]

A dedicated bus lane can be very easily taken away, tram lines are a bit harder to remove.

they managed in Leeds in the 1950's

 

[thejuggler]

A dedicated bus lane can be very easily taken away, tram lines are a bit harder to remove.

The irony for me with this statement is that during the current installation of a new dedicated bus lane local to me they have unearthed the tram lines which were buried about 60 years ago!

 

[birchesgreen]

they managed in Leeds in the 1950's

Well yes they managed with plenty of graft elsewhere too but they removed the bus lane outside my house by painting over the signs.

 

[PeterC]

how does a rubber tyred tram return the traction current?

I would guess through the metal guide rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would guess through the metal guide rail.

Usually they are trolleybuses, so via the return pole. Though for those with pantographs it is likely to be the guide rail where fitted.

 

[notadriver]

Bus lanes tend not to be respected by vehicles and often don’t have priority to let buses rejoin when the lane runs out. Guided bus ways are a solution but expensive to construct. I would also be curious about the reliability and range of electric buses vs a tram.

 

[edwin_m]

Usually they are trolleybuses, so via the return pole. Though for those with pantographs it is likely to be the guide rail where fitted.

The Bombardier GLT system, an alternative to the Translohr illustrated upthread, only ever had two applications IIRC, and both have now ceased operation after not much more than 20 years. Caen had pantographs but Nancy had trolley poles, because it shared some route with conventional trolleybuses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bus lanes tend not to be respected by vehicles and often don’t have priority to let buses rejoin when the lane runs out. Guided bus ways are a solution but expensive to construct. I would also be curious about the reliability and range of electric buses vs a tram.

I have a fair bit of experience of travel in Germany and the Netherlands, and they pretty much universally get more benefit from bus lanes because they run up to junctions and so the bus can always push in front. It helps that over there buses are allowed to use tram signals (- | / \ ) rather than colour lights, so unlike the UK you don't need space for an island. We really should adopt that here, and the effectiveness of bus lanes could be hugely better.

 

[randyrippley]

Intensive bus services chew up and rut the tarmac badly at bus stops. All that braking and acceleration energy causes real damage to the road

 

[Bletchleyite]

Intensive bus services chew up and rut the tarmac badly at bus stops. All that braking and acceleration energy causes real damage to the road

Another thing those dastardly Europeans worked out years ago, with busy stops usually being concrete or even cobbled surfaces.

 

[randyrippley]

Another thing those dastardly Europeans worked out years ago, with busy stops usually being concrete or even cobbled surfaces.

But that causes problems with tyre adhesion, drainage, and frost icing

 

[MPW]

One idea I have seen on a forum some time ago was to use proper segregated bus routes, BRT style, with articulated electric buses as a trial for the tram business case. If demand is high enough then the tracks can be added at a future date.

I think for that to work the route would need to be marketed and branded as a new transport option and distinct from other 'normal' buses

 

[Bletchleyite]

One idea I have seen on a forum some time ago was to use proper segregated bus routes, BRT style, with articulated electric buses as a trial for the tram business case. If demand is high enough then the tracks can be added at a future date.

I think for that to work the route would need to be marketed and branded as a new transport option and distinct from other 'normal' buses

If you want to see how that might work go have a ride on the Hamburg route that runs from Niendorf via the uni to the city - Metrobus 15 I think but it was the 102 when I lived there - basically the same demands as the Oxford Road corridor but run totally differently. It is run using artics with bus lanes and platforms in the middle of the road at intersections (which helps quality as the buses don't bang down grids and potholes the whole time). It even runs on tram signalling (as is the norm for European bus lanes and could do with being here).

Interestingly the reason it is like this is that it was converted from a tram in the 1960s and otherwise totally unchanged, but because of that it is an excellent illustration of how the vehicle itself isn't quite as important as we might think it is.

But that aside, isn't the Cambridge, Leigh or Gosport busway sort of what you are saying?

 

[Ken H]

One idea I have seen on a forum some time ago was to use proper segregated bus routes, BRT style, with articulated electric buses as a trial for the tram business case. If demand is high enough then the tracks can be added at a future date.

I think for that to work the route would need to be marketed and branded as a new transport option and distinct from other 'normal' buses

Is there room for that in many UK cities?
Take the 1 route from Leeds Centre on to Lawnswood. Where would you put a segregated bus/tram track without wholesale demolition? This is a trunk route out of Leeds towards Ilkley, Skipton and Kendal.
Not sure there is room going the other way to Beeston either. Narrow street bounded by terraced houses.
And the 1 is probably the busiest route in Leeds.

 

[MPW]

But that aside, isn't the Cambridge, Leigh or Gosport busway sort of what you are saying?

I haven't seen these busways but yea the idea is as you suggest, essentially a lot of the benefits of a tram route can also be delivered with buses and a much lower start up cost. Thus easier for a council to fund. If the route becomes well used then there is a clear business case for conversion to tram which gives the additional benefits mentioned by others in this thread. Then the more contentious work (taking road space away from cars) has already been done.

Conversely, if demand is low it might suggest the route does not warrant the cost of putting in tram tracks etc.

 

[Ken H]

I haven't seen these busways but yea the idea is as you suggest, essentially a lot of the benefits of a tram route can also be delivered with buses and a much lower start up cost. Thus easier for a council to fund. If the route becomes well used then there is a clear business case for conversion to tram which gives the additional benefits mentioned by others in this thread. Then the more contentious work (taking road space away from cars) has already been done.

Conversely, if demand is low it might suggest the route does not warrant the cost of putting in tram tracks etc.

You can put in a tram on an existing roadway and it has to share with other traffic. But a busway denies other traffic the road space. Bit difficult in a congested arterial route with no obvious alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can put in a tram on an existing roadway and it has to share with other traffic. But a busway denies other traffic the road space. Bit difficult in a congested arterial route with no obvious alternative.

Other than on the outer reaches where there is little congestion, there is basically no point building tramways which just run down the general traffic lanes of a road.