Transpennine Express to Scarborough - Will it always be a shuttle to York?

[Greybeard33]

I would have thought a 'Platform 0' at Piccadilly would be possible without too much work and an easy win, but of course as soon as you start altering infrastructure costs seem to get out of control very quickly.

Reportedly the Manchester Task Force is considering options for additional platforms on the east side of Piccadilly, needed to accommodate the additional transpennine services that TRU will enable when complete. The cancellation of HS2 Phase 2 means that site reserved for the HS station has become available.

I believe delivery would be in the early 2030s.

 

[YorkRailFan]

If there's so much conflict about where to terminate it in Manchester, why not have a bi-hourly Piccadilly service via Guide Bridge and a bi-hourly Victoria service providing an hourly Scarborough-Manchester service.

 

[mike57]

I believe delivery would be in the early 2030s.

8-10 years?? and there no approved plans currently, seems a bit of a tall order. I was think of something quick to deliver, using a bit of the car park, there is already a spur which finishes at the train shed, probably just one extra platform.

 

[Greybeard33]

No8-10 years?? and there no approved plans currently, seems a bit of a tall order. I was think of something quick to deliver, using a bit of the car park, there is already a spur which finishes at the train shed, probably just one extra platform.

This is what was said in a paper for the last Rail North Committee meeting in February:

Configuration State 4 focuses on the infrastructure in the South of Manchester,
including Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport. Previously an interim state during
the construction of HS2 Phase 2B, these interventions must now equip the network
between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport with the infrastructure needed to
accommodate both TRU and high-speed services in the long term.

The DfT held an industry workshop in January bringing together Network Rail (incl.
Strategic Planners), representatives from the Manchester Task Force, Train
Operating Companies, Transport for the North and local partners to discuss the
implications of the cancellation of HS2 Phase 2 and how this would affect the
Manchester area in the long term. Following the workshop, the Department are
determining the likely scope for CS4, which is focused on the area between
Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport and is expected to include additional platforms
to the east of Manchester Piccadilly station, adding to the previous options for the
development of a new Platform 0 and -1 to support TRU services. Meanwhile,
Network Rail are undertaking work looking at the route between Manchester to
Stockport in the long-term, which will provide further insight, and help to
determine what infrastructure interventions may be required to support service
growth in the future.

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s9124/Future%20Infrastructure%20and%20Service%20Development.pdf

If there were to be any infrastructure enhancements quicker than that, they would have needed to have progressed to the design stage already.

 

[Peter A]

I suspect the capacity of the eastern platforms at Piccadilly could be a factor in this. Many Northern services that used to be 2-car are now 3- or 4-car and some TPE services are becoming 6-car instead of 3-car. This makes stacking multiple trains in a platform more problematic.

I think it was always the intention to return to 4tph between Victoria and Leeds. The pre-Dec 2023 timetable was an interim step towards that.

Victoria can hardly be described as the TPE hub when neither the South Route nor the WCML services call there.

The pre May 2018 Scarborough to Liverpool via Piccadilly service may have been good for its users. But it used a disproportionate amount of Piccadilly station capacity, through crossing the Fast lines in the station throat.

That would make sense, but then the Piccadilly to Newcastle/Scarborough and in the current timetable the Piccadilly to Hull services exist so not sure why the problem should only arise now. In fact in the original version of the ECML track access application it was to be

-Liverpool to Newcastle
-Liverpool to Hull
-Manchester Airport to York (extended to Newcastle every 2 hours)
-Manchester Victoria to Saltburn
-Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough

Clearly with the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service shelved the Scarborough service has been re-routed into Victoria and the Saltburn service re-extended to the Airport. Perhaps the Manchester Piccadilly to York via Wakefield service is seen as an adequate replacement.

My comment regarding Victoria being the TPE hub was of course in reference to the northern route only and the core operation between Manchester and Leeds.

 

[mike57]

If there's so much conflict about where to terminate it in Manchester

Its not so much conflict as the reality that if your journey finishes in Manchester then Victoria is fine, even if it is a dump. There are trams/buses/taxis to all areas. The issue is if you need to change in Manchester, as most onwards destinations are served from Piccadilly. Having to get between the two is a roughly 30 min penalty on the journey, you can be lucky and do it in less, but arrival to departure I always allow an absolute minimum of 30 mins and 40 mins if I can, contrast that with a 10 minute 'official' time within Piccadilly, which can be cut by a few minutes at quieter times of the day. The current 1tph via the Ordsal chord is not much help most of the time.

Starting from Seamer/Scarborough typical journeys that I do to destinations in the North West now all take much longer than they did pre 2018, in no particular order Stockport, Birchwood, Heald Green, Chorley. The only place that is still fairly straightforward is Bolton.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Its not so much conflict as the reality that if your journey finishes in Manchester then Victoria is fine, even if it is a dump. There are trams/buses/taxis to all areas. The issue is if you need to change in Manchester, as most onwards destinations are served from Piccadilly. Having to get between the two is a roughly 30 min penalty on the journey, you can be lucky and do it in less, but arrival to departure I always allow an absolute minimum of 30 mins and 40 mins if I can, contrast that with a 10 minute 'official' time within Piccadilly, which can be cut by a few minutes at quieter times of the day. The current 1tph via the Ordsal chord is not much help most of the time.

Starting from Seamer/Scarborough typical journeys that I do to destinations in the North West now all take much longer than they did pre 2018, in no particular order Stockport, Birchwood, Heald Green, Chorley. The only place that is still fairly straightforward is Bolton.

Well its the same for me, I regularly travelled to Eccles and Mossley and Greenfield direct from Victoria. Now I change at Stalybridge for the last two stations and there's a few peak extras for Eccles to choose from or get the tram/Or train from Piccadilly .

 

[Energy]

This is what was said in a paper for the last Rail North Committee meeting in February:

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s9124/Future%20Infrastructure%20and%20Service%20Development.pdf

If there were to be any infrastructure enhancements quicker than that, they would have needed to have progressed to the design stage already.

I think this would be the first platform in the UK with a negative platform number.

 

[YorksLad12]

I think this would be the first platform in the UK with a negative platform number.

I think they would probably be lettered, if a complete renumbering was not on the cards.

Paragraph 6.3 in that document is interesting from a Leeds perspective, given that the station already has an (expensive) southern entrance from the existing footbridge. Topic for a different thread

 

[Greybeard33]

In fact in the original version of the ECML track access application it was to be

-Liverpool to Newcastle
-Liverpool to Hull
-Manchester Airport to York (extended to Newcastle every 2 hours)
-Manchester Victoria to Saltburn
-Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough

Clearly with the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service shelved the Scarborough service has been re-routed into Victoria and the Saltburn service re-extended to the Airport. Perhaps the Manchester Piccadilly to York via Wakefield service is seen as an adequate replacement.

The original version of the TPE 58th SA proposal is no longer on the SOAR website, but if it was as you describe above it was very ambitious. 6tph between Manchester and Huddersfield and 4tph between Leeds and York, neither seen since Covid.

I imagine the changes from that to the current version were developed as a result of the industry negotiations over the problematic ECML ESG timetable, even though that has now been postponed indefinitely as unworkable.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The cancellation of HS2 Phase 2 means that site reserved for the HS station has become available

Aint the Manchester tunnel and station bit to be delivered as planned unless Manchester wants to do sonething different which it wont as its obessed with this Southern parkway!

 

[mike57]

Aint the Manchester tunnel and station bit to be delivered as planned unless Manchester wants to do sonething different which it wont as its obessed with this Southern parkway!

Maybe at some uncertain time in the future, but I cant see the next government having the financial resources to pay anything more than lip service, that not a reflection of what they would like to do, just the grim reality that is the current financial situation. I doubt Manchester would be able to fund it without a big wedge of cash from central government. Construction starting mid 2030s?, in use mid 2040s or even later?, a lot can happen in that time and probably will. Its too far ahead to predict to be honest.