Travel twice with Day Travelcard

[John_1]

Hi

I am new to the London area. I intend to purchase an "Anytime Day Travelcard" between Hatfield and London Zones 1-6 this Friday.

If I use this to travel to London on Friday morning and then return home early evening (eg 16:00). Can I then use the same ticket to travel back to London for the evening eg 19:00 ish and then return late that same day?

I thought I would and can't see any T&C to suggest not. The machine has returned to me a similar ticket that I purchased for travel today so suggests that I could continue to use it if I wanted.

However I bought a super off peak day travelcard last Saturday but the machine retained the ticket when I got back to Hatfield, which suprised me so was pleased that I still have the Anytime one from today. Is it valid to use again? Should the weekend day travelcard be valid for 2 return trips (in 1 day) also if I had wanted?

Thanks,

John

 

[maniacmartin]

You can use it again within Zones 1-6, but you only get one return journey between Hatfield and the edge of Zone 6.

Once you get back to Hatfield, use the manned gate and ask to keep the ticket. You will then need to buy a seperate return to Boundary Zone 6 for your second trip into London.

 

[Deerfold]

Hi

I am new to the London area. I intend to purchase an "Anytime Day Travelcard" between Hatfield and London Zones 1-6 this Friday.

If I use this to travel to London on Friday morning and then return home early evening (eg 16:00). Can I then use the same ticket to travel back to London for the evening eg 19:00 ish and then return late that same day?

I thought I would and can't see any T&C to suggest not. The machine has returned to me a similar ticket that I purchased for travel today so suggests that I could continue to use it if I wanted.

However I bought a super off peak day travelcard last Saturday but the machine retained the ticket when I got back to Hatfield, which suprised me so was pleased that I still have the Anytime one from today. Is it valid to use again? Should the weekend day travelcard be valid for 2 return trips (in 1 day) also if I had wanted?

Thanks,

John

No. An outboundary travelcard is valid for one return journey to the travelcard boundary and unlimited travel within it. The travelcard still has valdity within the travelcard area even after you have returned to Hatfield so should be returned.

 

[John_1]

Thanks. Is there a T&C reference for this anywhere?

If this is the case I think the ticket is badly named as it is just called a Day Travel card between Hatfield and London zones 1-6. It doesn't state that it is a return ticket anywhere neither does it state that the travelcard portion only refers to the London zonal area anywhere.

Cheers,

John

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks. Is there a T&C reference for this anywhere?

If this is the case I think the ticket is badly named as it is just called a Day Travel card between Hatfield and London zones 1-6. It doesn't state that it is a return ticket anywhere neither does it state that the travelcard portion only refers to the London zonal area anywhere.

Cheers,

John

It's not as explicit as I'd expected, but

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46575.aspx states:

Travelcards can be purchased from most stations in the South East England area. Day Travelcard prices include the return fare to London plus travel in Zones 1-6.

However that page is out of date with regards to the time of return trains which are now valid until 0430, not 0230 (where trains exists at these times).

 

[jon0844]

You could argue the ticket doesn't make it entirely clear, and I'm sure plenty of people do it without buying a separate Hatfield to boundary zone 6 ticket, although in the grand scheme of things I doubt many people do two trips anyway. The bigger problem is giving or selling the ticket on.

 

[maniacmartin]

It's not crystal clear, but see National Rail Enquiries page on Travelcards:

Travelcards purchased outside of the London Fare Zones area:

Travelcards can be purchased from most stations in the South East England area. Day Travelcard prices include the return fare to London plus travel in Zones 1-6.[...]

 

[bb21]

Thanks. Is there a T&C reference for this anywhere?

If this is the case I think the ticket is badly named as it is just called a Day Travel card between Hatfield and London zones 1-6. It doesn't state that it is a return ticket anywhere neither does it state that the travelcard portion only refers to the London zonal area anywhere.

Cheers,

John

Just because it may be badly named does not mean you can break the terms of use.

Use it again and expect to get in to trouble if caught. The choice is yours.

 

[N Levers]

I'm sure this was discussed earlier in the week.

I'll try and find the thread now.

 

[John_1]

Thanks for the link.

After the statement that you have quoted there is then 3 bullet points for Peak, Off-peak, and 7-day or more, which doesn't clarify any further.

There is a then a link for further information and in that page unlimited travel is explicitly covered between starting station and the London zones. This page is for 7 days or more travel.

7 days or more was one of the bullet points against the statement on the first page so therefore I see that the statement that you have quoted could not exclude that the journey be taken more than once (during the life of the ticket of course).

Maybe this doesn't come up but I would be surprised to be the only person who had to work in London for during the day but wanted to come home and go back in the evening for a show.

John

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks for the link.

After the statement that you have quoted there is then 3 bullet points for Peak, Off-peak, and 7-day or more, which doesn't clarify any further.

There is a then a link for further information and in that page unlimited travel is explicitly covered between starting station and the London zones. This page is for 7 days or more travel.

7 days or more was one of the bullet points against the statement on the first page so therefore I see that the statement that you have quoted could not exclude that the journey be taken more than once (during the life of the ticket of course).

Maybe this doesn't come up but I would be surprised to be the only person who had to work in London for during the day but wanted to come home and go back in the evening for a show.

John

The 7 day season ticket is valid, as with any season ticket, for unlimited travel for everywhere it's valid.

I've done the same journey from home in Hertfordshire to work in London and back twice in one day (I left my door key on my desk and my wife was away...) but that was when I had an annual travelcard.

Most people who pop home between work and going out who live outside Lonodn (which I'd expect to be quite rare given the timings involved) would have a season ticket, not a Day ticket.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for the link.

After the statement that you have quoted there is then 3 bullet points for Peak, Off-peak, and 7-day or more, which doesn't clarify any further.

There is a then a link for further information and in that page unlimited travel is explicitly covered between starting station and the London zones. This page is for 7 days or more travel.

7 days or more was one of the bullet points against the statement on the first page so therefore I see that the statement that you have quoted could not exclude that the journey be taken more than once (during the life of the ticket of course).

Maybe this doesn't come up but I would be surprised to be the only person who had to work in London for during the day but wanted to come home and go back in the evening for a show.

John

What point are you trying to make?

You have been told about the validity of the ticket. Are you trying to argue that you should be allowed to use this ticket an unlimited number of times between the origin and the boundary of Zone 6?

Go ahead and do it if you wish, but I have told you that you will get in trouble if caught so you cannot claim ignorance.

If you think this ticket should be better named then tell that to ATOC, not us. The terms of use is not ambiguous AFAIK.

 

[455driver]

When you get caught here is the link to the correct part of the forum-
http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152

 

[John_1]

I didn't think I was making any point. I think you may have mis-read something that I put - I was just enquiring for some advice as I am new to the London area.

Deerfold has been very helpful, for which I am grateful. I have never had any intention of dodging any fares, not sure why you have now suggested twice that I might try to. I just want to make sure I get the correct ticket, hence going to the trouble to find out.

It maybe common in London area but I have not heard of a travelcard ticket before where the travelcard part only referred to part of the journey. I would have just used it again without question but the fact that last Saturday it was retained by the machine made me wonder so I have come here to ask advise to make sure I do get the right ticket.

 

[bb21]

Questioning the wording on the National Rail Enquiries website is not going to change anything. All this talk about the ticket being poorly named, and information given on the National Rail website somehow being inadequate after you have been told all the necessary information gives off very different vibes to whatever it is you were intending to say.

What you need to know, which has been made abundantly clear to you, is that you may use your Day Travelcard once between your origin and the boundary of Zone 6. Any further travel in that section will need an additional fare paid for. You may use the inboundary component for the rest of the day, so if you want to retain it for further use, simply use the manual gate when you arrive back at your origin.

I'm not sure what else is unclear.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps it should be made clever - and maybe it will on the new design tickets in the future? Does anyone know what this will look like?

As I said before, I doubt many people would do it anyway. The go to work, come home, go back for a show example is, as has been said, more likely going to apply to someone with a season ticket that DOES allow unlimited trips back and forth.

I think since 2002/3, I've maybe gone into London, back home and back in perhaps 3 or 4 times. Generally speaking, once I come home (even though the trip is only some 25-30 minutes) I don't want to go back. I'd plan my time so that I stick around somewhere in town, and if I was going out with someone else from home - they'd come in to meet me.

Thus, in the grand scheme of things it's not really a big deal. I doubt many RPIs would notice if the ticket wasn't clipped, or care, to be perfectly frank. Yes, you'd be evading a fare (i.e. buying another return to the boundary) and yes you'd have problems if your ticket had gone through a gate, but I bet nobody would care that much otherwise.

As I said, the bigger problem is the ticket being re-used by someone else. Even the Travelcard bit isn't transferable, and I bet a lot more people do that.

As 455driver has said, if you did get tempted (or anyone else gets tempted) then I await the post in Disputes & Prosecutions!

 

[kieron]

It maybe common in London area but I have not heard of a travelcard ticket before where the travelcard part only referred to part of the journey. I would have just used it again without question but the fact that last Saturday it was retained by the machine made me wonder so I have come here to ask advise to make sure I do get the right ticket.

Just to make things clear, the right ticket for your second journey of the day would be an off-peak return from Hatfield to Boundary Zone 6 (for £5.20) if you're travelling in the week (it's not valid before 9.30, but there are no evening restrictions), and a super off peak one at weekends.

A return to Hadley Wood costs the same, but it's technically only valid on trains which stop at Hadley Wood. I don't know if any staff would make an issue of this.

 

[Haywain]

I'm sure this was discussed earlier in the week.

I'll try and find the thread now.

It was previously discussed in this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105815 which also discussed whether a Boundary Zone ticket could be used to allow continuing use of the Travelcard part of the ticket.

 

[CyrusWuff]

A return to Hadley Wood costs the same, but it's technically only valid on trains which stop at Hadley Wood. I don't know if any staff would make an issue of this.

In most cases, probably not, but there are situations where having a ticket from/to a "named station" instead of a Boundary restricts a passenger's options, such as Hertford East/North, Cambridge (and stations to Kings Lynn) and Enfield Town/Chase.